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Operator: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the conference call of Intesa Sanpaolo for the presentation of the third quarter 2025 results hosted today by Mr. Carlo Messina, Chief Executive Officer. My name is Nadia, and I will be your coordinator for today's conference. [Operator Instructions] I remind you that today's conference call is being recorded. At this time, I would like to hand the call over to Mr. Carlo Messina, CEO. Sir, you may begin.
Carlo Messina: Thank you. Welcome to our 9-months 2025 results conference call. This is Carlo Messina, Chief Executive Officer; and I'm here with Luca Bocca, our CFO; Marco Delfrate and Andrea Tamagnini, Investor Relations Officers. We just delivered our best ever 9-month net income at EUR 7.6 billion, of which EUR 20.4 billion (sic) [ EUR 2.4 billion ] in Q3. Common equity Tier 1 ratio increased more than 100 basis points. Annualized return on equity is 20% and earnings per share grew 9%. These are excellent results, confirming we are well on track to deliver our full year net income target of well above EUR 9 billion. including Q4 managerial actions to strengthen future profitability. The 9 months and the third quarter both recorded all-time highs for commissions and insurance income. Costs are down, asset quality remains top notch and customer financial assets grew to more than EUR 1.4 trillion. We keep investing strongly in technology, enabling the acceleration of our workforce generational change. This year, we are returning EUR 8.3 billion to our shareholders, including the EUR 3.2 billion interim dividend to be paid in November. On top of this, an additional capital distribution will be quantified at year-end. Our results once again confirm the resilience of our well-diversified business model, further validated by the EBA stress test where Intesa Sanpaolo was a clear winner. This outstanding outcome reinforces our leading position in Europe. This is also reflected in the 2-notch upgrade by Fitch moving ISP above Italy and the 1 notch upgrade by DBRS. Our strong profitability allow us to confirm a world-class position in social impact to fight poverty and reduce inequalities. I'm proud of these results and thank our people for their excellent contribution. Now let's turn to Slide 1 for the key achievement of the first 9 months. In the first 9 months, we delivered record high profitability and efficiency, NPL stock and ratios at historical lows, strong capital growth and high increasing and sustainable value creation. Slide #2. In this slide, you can see the impressive continuous growth in net income. Slide #3. In the first 9 months, we delivered a significant increase in return on equity, earnings per share, dividend per share and tangible book value per share. In a few weeks, we will pay an interim dividend almost 10% higher than last year. Slide #4. In Q3, we confirmed our excellent organic capital generation capability with a 40 basis point increase in common equity Tier 1 ratio. Slide #6 (sic) [ Slide # 5 ]. Net interest income has increased over EUR 400 million compared with 2 years ago despite a 90 basis points drop in Euribor. Euribor is now stabilizing at a level consistent with the normalized interest rate scenario, and our hedging strategy will continue to sustain net interest income in the coming quarters. Slide #6. In the first 9 months, commissions and insurance income grew 5%. Q3 performance was excellent with 7% yearly growth and stable Q-on-Q despite the usual summer business slowdown. Slide #7. We also managed to reduce costs despite tech investments reaching EUR 5 billion. Slide #8. As said, we are in a comfortable position to confirm our 2025 net income guidance of well above EUR 9 billion. Moreover, we clearly have significant excess capital, giving us a lot of flexibility for growth and additional distributions. Slide #9. Our performance allow us to benefit all our stakeholders. The new medium, long-term lending to families and businesses grew 40% on a yearly basis. And let me just focus on the contribution to the public sector because in taxes in the first 9 months, we gave contribution for EUR 4.6 billion that is equivalent to the amount of the new taxation that the government is looking from the banking sector. In 9 months, we paid the same amount. So contributing hopefully to social inequalities in the public sector. Slide #9 -- Slide #11, sorry. In a nutshell, in the first 9 months, net income was up 6%. We accrued EUR 5.3 billion in cash dividends, and we delivered a best-in-class common equity Tier 1 ratio growth. Please turn to the next slide for a closer look at our P&L. Slide 12. This slide shows the building block of our 9-month P&L with improved results across nearly all items. Please turn to the next slide for the third quarter results. Very briefly, in the third quarter, revenues were supported by the highest ever Q3 commissions and insurance income. We decided not to push on trading, keeping flexibility for the coming quarters. Costs were down on a yearly basis, and we increased NPL coverage. Please turn to Slide 14 for a look at net interest income. We are firmly on track to deliver net interest income well above the 2023 level. Further growth is expected in 2026. Slide #15. This slide provides more details on the net interest income evolution. The Q3 decline was mainly due to the further reduction in Euribor and the impact from the 6-month and 1-year repricing of loans. Slide #16. Customer financial assets were up strongly on a yearly and quarterly basis. In Q3, we had EUR 3 billion growth in retail current accounts and EUR 10 billion growth in assets under management. Let's now move to Slide 17. Slide 17. commission growth was driven by wealth management fees. We can count on our unmatched advisory [indiscernible] and our fully owned product factories are a clear competitive advantage. Slide 18. The contribution from Wealth Management and protection activities is 43% of gross income and assets under management inflows are growing. Please turn to the next slide for a closer look at insurance income. Non-motor P&C contribution was the main driver for insurance income growth, and we still have significant upside potential. Slide 20. The contribution from commissions and insurance income to revenues is by far the highest in Europe after UBS. Please turn to Slide 21 for a look at costs. Operating costs are down with personnel costs decreasing 1% and administrative cost 1.5%. Slide 22. We have high flexibility to further reduce costs, thanks to our tech transformation. By 2027, we will have 9,000 exits with savings of EUR 500 million. Slide 23. We have a best-in-class cost-income ratio in Europe. Let's move to Slide 24 for a look at our asset quality. Asset quality remained excellent, and we registered the lowest ever NPL inflows. Slide 25. Our NPL stock [ is ] clearly among the best in Europe. Slide 26. As you can see, we remain very well positioned in terms of Stage 2. Slide 27. Our annualized cost of risk is stable at 25 basis points with NPL coverage up to more than 51% and stable overlays. We see no signs of asset quality deterioration. Slide 28. Our NPL coverage is clearly among the best in Europe. Slide 29, our Russia exposure is now less than 0.1% of the group's total loan with local loans close to 0. Slide 30. We have a rock solid and increasing capital position. Common equity Tier 1 ratio increased to 13.9%. Let's move to Slide 31. ISP [indiscernible] of the EBA stress test, we had a very low adverse scenario impact on our common equity Tier 1 ratio. The next best performing peer showed an impact 3x higher. In the next 3 slides, you have the usual update on our sound liquidity position and ESG actions. But let's move to Slide 36 to see how ISP is fully equipped to succeed in any scenario. Slide 36. Our profitability and capital position remains strong even in adverse conditions. We have a very resilient business model. Our asset quality is top notch, and we have already deployed EUR 5 billion in tech investments, including artificial intelligence, we are key enablers for future efficient gains. Slide 37. Intesa Sanpaolo stands out in Europe across key metrics and is better positioned than peers to face any future challenge. Slide 38. In this slide, you can appreciate our unique positioning, thanks to our commissions-driven and efficient business model. Let's move to Slide 39 for a few words on the strength of the Italian economy. The Italian economy remains resilient and the recent upgrade of Italy's rating confirms the country's strength. We expect Italian GDP to grow this year and next. Slide 40. The Italian companies are in a stronger position today compared to the past. Their debt-to-equity ratio has decreased over time and their liquidity buffers are at all-time highs. Slide 32 -- 42, sorry. This slide offers a recap of our best ever 9 months and the reason why we are fully equipped to succeed in the future. To finish, please turn to Slide 43. Slide 43. We are in a comfortable position to confirm our full year net income guidance. 9-month performance once again demonstrates the quality of our business model. We are a sustainable 20% return on equity bank, one of the few in Europe able to combine high profitability with long-term strength. In Q3, we started putting away in the and continue in the fourth quarter to reinforce future profitability. We are delivering one of the highest capital returns and dividend yields in European banking while maintaining a rock solid capital position and continue to lead on social impact. At the same time, we are accelerating the generational change of our workforce, investing in skills and new talent to ensure the group continues to grow and innovate in the coming years. Thank you for your attention, and we are now happy to take your questions.
Operator: [Operator Instructions] And now we're going to take the first question. And it comes from the line of Antonio Reale from Bank of America.
Antonio Reale: It's Antonio from Bank of America. Just a couple of questions for me, please. One on growth and the other one on capital distribution. So my first question is, well, what do you think it will take for a bank like yours to be able to show some loan growth going forward and at the same time, not dilute your 20% ROTE. So basically supporting growth while keeping the same level of profitability sustainable through time. The second question is to do with your capital. I think this quarter was a positive surprise. And I think yet it's not being rewarded by the market today. I think part of the issue might be that this excess capital has been trapped there in the bank as you've been basically remunerating shareholders only from your earnings, almost 100% total payout, but you've not paid out the excess capital. So the question is, could you consider paying shareholders also out of your excess capital? And related to that, I mean, you're no longer the highest paying cash dividend bank in terms of payout for what it's worth really. Do you think it will make sense to pay more than 70% dividend payout, so tilting the mix even further towards cash dividends?
Carlo Messina: So thank you, Antonio. The point on growth is something that we analyzed in comparison the real potential of value creation. We are shifting a significant portion of our [indiscernible] into very low default rate loans. So we reduced in a significant way the default rate of our portfolio, so moving to close to 1% in the range of 0.7%, 0.8%. So the reduction was massive in the last year, and this will continue because we think that for a bank like us in mainly concentrated in wealth management and protection business model with a significant sustainability in the earning power, what is important is to concentrate on the ability to not generate nonperforming loans in the future. So that means that the growth in loan book will be, for sure, accelerating mainly in the sector export related in the sector that are linked with the new generation and new funds. But in our perception, this will bring the growth in the range of 2%, 3% in 2026, but not more than this. So the main driver could be for sure, for the recovery and growth in terms of net interest income 2026 will be the loan growth, but the acceleration will be part of a story that will balance also the cost of risk for the future. So that for us is fundamental having -- you know that Italian banks in the past had significant negative surprise from the loan book. We want to avoid to be in case of future crisis to be again in the same position. That's the reason why we are so concentrated in maintaining a net nonperforming loans ratio very low and [indiscernible] not diluting the coverage of the nonperforming loans that for us is fundamental also to proceeds in further reduction of the stock because 0 nonperforming loans is the ideal way of working for a bank that is really focused on wealth management and protection like Intesa Sanpaolo. In terms of capital distribution, obviously, capital distribution and the excess capital is related with the business model because from one side, we have a very limited need of capital. So our capital related to unexpected losses today is very low because as you had the occasion to see in the EBA stress test, our resilience is really strong. So our real excess capital is really significant in comparison to the past and in comparison to all the other peers. At the same time, the capital distribution is something that we will reassess in the new business plan. We have a clear evidence of other players that are working on a payout ratio that is much higher cash dividend payout ratio that is much higher than the one that we have in Intesa Sanpaolo. So this is something that we are evaluating. And at the same time, also what we can do with the excess capital, not only the current excess capital, but also the excess capital that we will generate in the next years because the run rate of 20% ROE bank will, by definition, create significant excess capital for the future. And this is part of what we are starting for the new business plan, but we have to discuss with the Board of Directors and then to propose and submit also to the supervisor. And then as soon as we have completed this process at the beginning of February, we will announce a new dividend policy. But obviously, the capital -- the excess capital, the real substantial excess capital significant and we do not see any kind of M&A opportunities. So by definition, the capital is -- the excess capital is of our shareholders.
Operator: And now we take our next question. And the question comes from the line of Sofie Peterzens from Goldman Sachs.
Sofie Caroline Peterzens: This is Sofie from Goldman Sachs. My first question would be around net interest income. How should we think about the net interest income trough? Do you think it's fair to assume that net interest income will trough in the next 1 or 2 quarters? Or when do you expect net interest income to trough on a quarter-on-quarter basis? And also, if you could just remind us of your rate sensitivity and how do you think about the replicating portfolio tailwinds that we should expect for net interest income? And then my second question would be around the banking tax in Italy. How should we think about the potential banking tax or levy for Intesa?
Carlo Messina: So on net interest income evolution, I want just to make a clear point on net interest income because I read some point on net interest income that I think in this quarter, I need to have some clarification. So when we gave the outlook on our net interest income, we gave a clear indication that the third quarter could have been a third quarter in which we can have a reduction in terms of net interest income in comparison to the second quarter. And the reason is mainly related to the fact that we have, in the third quarter, a concentration and we had a concentration of repricing on the loan book. So we had the majority of our loan book that had made repricing during this quarter. We still remain only with EUR 8 billion of loans that we repriced in the fourth quarter. So this is the real bottom that we reached in this quarter because we had an impact of roughly between the repricing on a 6 months and 12 months Euribor of 100 basis points on an amount of 50 billion in this quarter. So this means that we had the peak of the negative contribution in this quarter, but was expected by us. So that was not a surprise. That the reason why we confirm our guidance and also because refinancing on the loan book will be only EUR 8 billion, concentrated in a volume of loans of EUR 8 billion. So very limited amount in comparison to our portfolio. So we think that in this quarter, we can have a rebound in terms of net interest income and then maintain the speed that will allow us to have in 2026 net interest income that can increase. So that's our expectation on net interest income. On the other side, banking tax. On the banking tax, we -- obviously, for the real figure, we will have to wait until the final process in parliament, so in which we will have the law approved. What I can tell you is that the impact that we can have both on net interest -- net income and on net equity from our side is totally manageable. And our commitment today are also including a potential impact coming from taxation. So absolutely not worried about this kind of impact.
Operator: And the question comes from the line of Marco Nicolai from Jefferies.
Marco Nicolai: So the first question is on insurance income. I see that it's picking up. So if I look at the year-on-year growth in the third quarter, it's actually improving quite a bit compared to the previous quarters. So can you tell us what's happening here? And if we should expect for the future, the same level of year-on-year growth in this line in insurance income? And then another question on isytech. Just wanted to know where you stand in terms of the group transition to this new tech platform beyond the isybank customers? And so what do you expect in terms of efficiencies from this platform, both in terms of cost efficiencies and also in terms of revenues upside, let's say, from this platform?
Carlo Messina: So thank you. On insurance, we are working in order to have further [ acceleration ] business. The momentum is very positive and the penetration is in such a position that can allow us also to have significant further increase because we increased penetration, but we remain with a penetration between 13% and 14%. And we think that there is room to have significant further penetration in the next years. So insurance is and will remain and especially property and casualty insurance is and will remain an engine for growth that for the group is really strategic. Also, if you look the growth in terms of market share in the areas in which we are investing is really impressive. So we are increasing the value of this company and the value of the acceleration of the product between the different networks of the group and especially in the Banca de Territori network. Isytech is, for sure, important for Isbank, and this will allow to have further potential increase in terms of clients, in terms of revenue. But let me focus on what is in reality for us, isytech because isytech will be the pillar of the new business plan. isytech will be the key driver of the new plan, especially for the cost reduction. We think that the massive investments of the cloud and the possibility to write off the mainframe could be -- the investments in mainframe could be the most important part of the story of a plan that will be a plan based on cost reduction and efficiency. So this will be the clear lever that we will use in order to gain competitive advantage, not only in terms of client revenues, but in terms of efficiency. So this will remain a strategic lever, and we will elaborate more in the presentation of the business plan.
Marco Nicolai: When do you plan the presentation of the business plan again?
Carlo Messina: Should be in occasion of the results of the year-end, so the beginning of February.
Operator: And now we take our next question. And the question comes from the line of Ignacio Ulargui from BNP Paribas Exane.
Ignacio Ulargui: I have 2 questions, if I may. The first one is on fees. Looking to wealth management fees and looking to the asset inflows in the quarter, seen a very strong performance despite the summer seasonality. Just wanted to get a bit of a sense of how you think fees will go through in coming quarters and the progression of shift from AUC to AUM, how you see your clients on that step? The second one is on the capital movement in the quarter. If you could elaborate a bit more on the RWA improvement, the 10 basis points. Was there anything related to moves? Linked to that, should we expect any hit from operational RWAs in the fourth quarter?
Carlo Messina: Okay. So starting from fees, we expect to have a very good performance also in the next quarter by definition. So fourth quarter will be a quarter in which our expectation is to have a growth -- significant growth in terms of fee and commissions, but also an acceleration during the year of the business plan. In the plan, we are planning to reinforce the ability to make conversion in terms of asset under administration and also the portion of time deposits that will expire during the period of the plan. We are increasing and we will elaborate on the presentation of the business plan, but I can anticipate that the amount that is workable is really massive and increased in comparison with the EUR 100 billion that originally we gave as the workable -- real workable part that we gave to our network, we are increasing this amount and they will start in 2026 to work with target that will be selective client by client. But this is and will remain an area in which we can deliver organically a significant growth in terms of fee and commissions. In terms of capital movements, we had in this quarter benefits in terms of risk-weighted assets is also related to this reinforcement of the quality of our loan book. So the reduction in terms of default rate has allowed us to improve the condition of the risk-weighted assets. And this is part of the story that I was mentioned before. This will continue to be part of our story. And we think that this can give satisfaction also during 2026. In terms of the trend for the last quarter, we will have a further positive evolution in terms of capital ratio that our expectation. And we will compensate an increase in operational risk that can come from the revenues average of the last 5 years because you know that 3 years because you know that the rule in which you can calculate the risk on a standard basis is based on 3 years revenues. And so we had like all the other banks in Europe, an increase in revenues. So this will bring an increase but will be more than compensated by the other reduction in risk-weighted assets.
Operator: And the question comes from the line of Britta Schmidt from Autonomous Research.
Britta Schmidt: Just coming back on net interest income. You mentioned that hedging means that you can sustain this net interest income for the coming quarters. So should we read into this that this is the level we should expect unless we see loan growth pick up? And then just a clarification, what is in the other net interest income that declined in 3Q in the quarter? Is that related to NPLs? Or is there anything else in there? And then on capital, just 2 clarifications, please. I think there was a pillar increase of around 15 basis points. Maybe you can give us some color as to why that increased? And whether you could just confirm that any insurance dividends are yet to be recorded in your capital? And maybe if you have an impact on that, that will be helpful as well.
Carlo Messina: Luca bocca will answer to your questions.
Luca Bocca: Okay. I can start with NII. NII, we will have some decrease in the quarter in the financial component, but it is related to the classical situation in that line that are NPLs and the difference between loan and deposit. So the capital that is noninterest bearing asset liabilities. So it is something that is normal that decrease during a negative trend in the Euribor, but it will remain stable in the next quarters. And according to the question to insurance income, you are right, we are in Danish compromise. So RWA of insurance income is included in the credit risk. And during the quarter, we can have the payment of a dividend to decrease the level of RWA related to that kind of line. And this is one of the measure of optimization that we can have during the fourth quarter to compensate the increase in operational risk.
Operator: And the question comes from the line of Andrea Filtri from Mediobanca.
Andrea Filtri: The first question is if you could give us a sort of sensitivity of your fees to the market performance? And the second is an unbiased view on Italian M&A. There are articles every day on the combinations, potential combinations in Italy. How do you see the end game looking like in terms of market structure for the Italian market?
Carlo Messina: So looking at the sensitivity to the market performance, our expectation is that in case of a reduction of interest rate, we can increase our fee commission income in a significant way because this calculation is made moving through the capital gain embedded in our assets under administration that we can switch -- that we can ask our clients to switch into asset under management. So we think that in case of a reduction of 50 basis points of Euribor, the increase could be in the range of some EUR 100 million of commissions. This will depend on the kind of portfolio. A significant portion of our -- of the portfolio of our clients with a reduction of 50 basis points could become significantly capital gain positive. So in case of potential switch, we can accelerate the growth of our fee and commissions income. In terms -- that's very important for the gross income -- the gross inflows, not only for the net inflows. So in case of a reduction, we are really positive. In case of an increase in interest rate until a level of 50 basis points, our expectation we will remain more or less at the same level. This will depend also on the market performance of the equity markets. Then we will see what can happen. Our base case is that our fee and commissions can increase in a significant way during 2026 and 2027. Looking at the M&A environment in Italy, I have to tell you that I don't think that there will be some significant move in the next months during 2026, we will see what can happen for the other competitors that didn't close deal during 2026. In any case, Intesa Sanpaolo will be not part of any kind of consolidation in the banking and insurance framework.
Operator: Now we'll go and take our next question. And it comes from the line of Andrea Lisi from Equita.
Andrea Lisi: The first question is if you can already provide us an indication on the managerial action you are aiming to put in place in the fourth quarter, especially given your indication regarding the new business plan that will be a plan of further efficiencies. And so if you can provide some color on them. The second is if you can provide an update of your direct digital platform from 2026, how is evolving the collaboration with BlackRock to create the new digital wealth management platform for European private and affluent clients, what should we expect and what should we have updates? And how should we make in your international growth in this segment?
Carlo Messina: So looking at the managerial actions, we will obviously wait for the final figures of 2025 in order to define the managerial action and the focus will be on the sustainability of future results. The first part of the job [indiscernible] the cost base. So this will mean that we will work on some areas in which we can anticipate some cost reduction that we can have for the future. So making some write-off in some areas in which we can improve profitability, mainly related to the IT system cost base. This will be the majority of the efforts that we are doing in terms of studying the potentiality. Then we still have a significant number of people that asked to leave the organization at the timing of our agreement, and we didn't -- we were not in a position to allow them to leave the organization. At the same time, we remain also with some areas of potential reinforcement also on the credit side, if this will bring to a potential reduction in terms of risk for the future. And so we will also work in this part of the story considering that we are in a very good position in terms of run rate of the cost of risk. So these are the most important areas in which we will concentrate in order to evaluate the managerial actions. On the BlackRock, I will ask Luca to answer to your question.
Luca Bocca: Yes. The partnership is continuing to develop. In Italy, Aladin solution is fully operative on all the different clients that we have, especially in the Private Banking division. So you see the very good performance in commission are also driven to the excellent level of service that we offer to the Italian client. On the European platform, we are planning, as you can see at Page 60 to launch the platform not only in Belgium but in the fourth quarter of this year and some hundred million of new financial asset can arrive in the next quarter. But again, in the business plan, we will provide also a number on this kind of lever. Anyway, we are starting to have also new inflow of money in Belgium and Luxembourg.
Operator: Now we're going to take our next question. And it comes from the line of Andrew Coombs from Citi.
Andrew Coombs: Just follow up with a couple of numbers questions. Firstly, just on the trading income, the client contribution was fairly stable, but the capital markets are fair bit weaker. Could you just elaborate on what drove that swing in the capital markets trading results? And then the second question, just coming back to the deposit hedge on Slide 15. You talked about EUR 2.5 billion maturing a month, so close to EUR 30 billion a year. If I take that implies the entire book would turnover in about 5.5 years. So your average duration would be just shy of 3 and you said it's 4. So can you just help me square the circle on that one, please?
Carlo Messina: So on the trading income, we had some negative mark-to-market, especially in some participation, mainly we can mention the Euronext participation that was really strong positive in the last quarters and this has reduced the positive contribution. So this is the most important part of these items in the trading income. Then in any case, we decided to be very conservative in order not to force profitability in this quarter because we have already reached the level of our profitability that we want to deliver this year. And so we are already to prepare for the new business plan. In the second question, I will ask Luca.
Luca Bocca: The duration is 4 years because it's the average duration based on the different buckets that we cover with a different level of our stable deposit. So it's 4 years with repricing of more or less EUR 3 billion every month in the region of EUR 9 billion every quarter. So it's something that you need to wait for the different bucket of our deposit. In any case, you can assume a repricing at the level of today of 10 basis points more or less every quarter, and this is the reason why we are have another increase in the yield of our hedging portfolio in the 2026 of around EUR 400 million of positive contribution.
Operator: And now we're going to take our last question for today. Just give us a moment, and it comes from the line of Delphine Lee from JPMorgan.
Delphine Lee: Just 2 on my side. So I just wanted to ask on fees because you've had a very strong year, fees growing mid-single digit, but that includes wealth management fees growing double digit. Going forward, do you think you can continue to achieve the same kind of levels -- or just if you can give us any color of how you're thinking about the moving parts within fees? And then my second question is just a follow-up. I can't remember if you responded to the question, but another question around the cash dividend payout. Considering other banks, other Italian banks are looking at increasing meaningfully their dividend payout ratio. Is this something you're considering as well as part of your new business plan?
Carlo Messina: So on fees, I can confirm you that we are working in order to have a double-digit growth in terms of wealth management and commissions. This will be part of the strategic story of the group and the increase in terms of amount of assets under administration and deposits that can be transformed into asset under management and the increase in people that we will have during the business plan, global advisers and the 360-degree services, this will bring us to have trend in terms of fee and commissions income that is and will remain the most important part of the story of our business model. In terms of cash dividend payout, as I told in the first question, I think that this will be evaluated with all the new dividend policy of the group. It is clear that until some months ago, we were the best-in-class in terms of cash dividend. Today, there are other players that can be considered as part of benchmarking that we can analyze in terms of evaluating the new dividend policies. But do not forget that we will have to deal also with a significant excess capital. So the mix between dividend payout and share buyback, we will be part of the new dividend policy. But 70% would be a minimum for sure.
Operator: Thank you. Dear speakers, there are no further questions for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management team for any closing remarks.
Carlo Messina: No, only thank you very much, and we will have the occasion to have also the analysis of the business plan in the next presentation, and you will have all the drivers that will allow us to be a sustainable 20% ROE bank. So thank you very much.
Operator: This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now all disconnect. Have a nice day.