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Unknown Executive: Good afternoon, and welcome to Outokumpu's Fourth Quarter Results Webcast. I'm Johan, responsible for Investor Relations. We will begin with the presentation from our CEO, Kati ter Horst; and our CFO, Marc-Simon Schaar. After the presentation, you are welcome to ask questions over the line. With that, I'm pleased to hand over to you, Kati.
Kati Horst: Thank you very much, Johan, and also very, very welcome from my side. We are here today in the studio in a very snowy beautiful Helsinki. So let's go then directly to the business and talk about the fourth quarter and also some comments, key comments on the full year. So if we look at the whole year as such, I think the comment there is that the stainless steel market did remain weak and was very much pressured by the uncertainty we saw in the markets and also the especially low-priced Asian imports coming to Europe. So our full year adjusted EBITDA then decreased to EUR 167 million, and the profitability improved very clearly in BA Americas and in Ferrochrome, but then they declined in business area Europe, if you compare year-on-year from 2024. Then the Q4 '25 profitability was impacted both by market weakness, but also the temporary challenges we've been having with the supply chain planning solution in the ERP rollout in business area Europe. We do expect more favorable market dynamics going forward, and I'll come back to that in a little while. Also I would like to remind you that we are advancing our EVOLVE growth strategy by investing in the pilot plant in the U.S., to develop this proprietary technology we've been talking about, which is aimed at producing low CO2 metals and first focus being on ferrochrome and high chromium content metal. CBAM and tariffs are now the 2 elements that we see changing the import picture both in North America and Europe. So on the left side, you see Europe. The Q4 figures include October and November. And you can see that the imports have come down. Same has happened in North America because of the tariffs. And this is something, especially now in Europe, that we do expect to continue this quarter. I wanted to give also a bit of a sense from the Q4 of the sentiment in different customer segments. So you basically see here our key customer segments and the colors are giving a bit of the sentiment. And you can see that the sentiment has been quite subdued. So either no change or even a little bit slightly negative on the automotive and heavy industry side. But now that we come to the beginning of '26, I think it is changing a little bit. So first, I would like to comment on Europe that we clearly see that CBAM and the expectation of the coming safeguards are supporting demand for European suppliers. It's not necessarily helping to increase the end customer use demand. And there, we don't see really clear signs of recovery yet. But demand for European producers, we do see supported by the policy instruments. Then on the Americas side, I would say that we now see some first signs on a market recovery or economic recovery, however you want to call it. And that was also reflected a bit in the clearly better PMI index that was published in January. It basically jumping to 52.6 points. And I think that is also what we see in our order books and the sentiment that we see being somewhat more positive than before in the Americas. There's one customer case here I wanted to share with you because it is basically an example of one of the product developments in Outokumpu that highlights how our innovative material development. In this case, the Lean Duplex Forta provides a solution for very challenging customer needs in the real life, and it also helps to support the energy transformation and sustainable products and minerals and metals. So the customer here is Metso, very much in the space of mining and minerals and metals. Then moving forward, commenting then a bit on the Q4 result more. So we have clearly here a situation where Europe was weak also for the whole year and where BA Americas and Ferrochrome had a very solid performance. The European weak financial performance very much based on the market weakness and the sustained pressure from the imports. And then as I said earlier, also in the Q4, some temporary challenges that we've been having with our supply chain solution in this ERP implementation. We have had significant improvement profitability in BA Americas. That has been driven very much by the higher volumes and lower cost. And then really in BA Ferrochrome, we've actually seen a third consecutive year of improvement. And we also do see the robust demand continuing for our low emission European Ferrochrome. And then maybe on the own measures, I could comment that we had the target to have EUR 60 million savings in short-term cost-saving measures. So we have reached EUR 63 million by the end of the year. We have also reached the targeted level of EUR 350 million on this 3-year run rate program that we've been running by the end of '25. And therefore, also that program is now closed. Then moving to sustainability and commenting on some of the key items there. So our solid sustainability performance continued in Q4. We were also present in the COP30 and had some really good interactions with some of our customers, but also different politicians, talking about energy, talking about carbon capture, and other important topics. On safety, we are on a world-class level in the process industry. We had a challenging Q3. And I was very happy to see that now in Q4, we are really back on track in our safety performance with a total recordable incident frequency rate of 1.4. If we then look at the recycled material content, actually, all the quarters in 2025 we were at the record high level of 97% of recycled material content. And of course, together with the actions we've taken in energy efficiency and optimizing our processes, this has really delivered continued emission reductions for Outokumpu. And this becomes a more important topic going forward. So the low EU ETS emission intensity that we have, coupled with the free allowances that we have going forward, is really supporting our competitiveness, and I come a bit back to that a little bit later. Our sustainability leadership was also recognized externally. Earlier in the year, in '25, we got again the EcoVadis Platinum. And then towards the end of the year, the CDP's A rating for the climate was received. Then a couple of words about how CBAM and the phaseout of the free allowances under the EU ETS are expected to impact our business. So when you look at the left side, CBAM basically impacts the top line, while then the discussion of the free allowances is a cost question to the industry and for the players. So both in stainless steel and in CBAM or both in stainless steel and ferrochrome, so the key importers to Europe have carbon intensity default values that are clearly higher than the European benchmark. And this is clearly expected then to shift demand more towards the European suppliers. So you can see here in the left and in the middle the black bar presenting the imports and then the green bar representing the European reference values. Further then, I would like to point out that Outokumpu has been one of the early movers in smart decarbonization, and that has now resulted in a very competitive position under the EU ETS. So we basically have available free allowances covering our needs until 2030. I have here then another example on how we can reduce carbon emissions through partnerships that actually create win-win business concepts in the ecosystem. So this is a partnership that we have announced as an MAU with Norsk e-Fuel where basically the concept is that the side stream of our ferrochrome production, the CO gas, we can deliver that to Norsk e-Fuel for the production of sustainable aviation fuel. The beef here for us is that we are really -- by selling the CO gas, we are really reducing quite substantially our emissions. And for them, it's a very cost-effective and good raw material for producing sustainable aviation fuel. So here, let's see how this continues going forward, but these are continuously the type of opportunities we are looking in partnerships. And then now I think I would like to hand over to Marc-Simon to talk more details about our financial position and the results.
Marc-Simon Schaar: Thank you, Kati. Good morning, good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. Despite the challenging market environment, our solid financial foundation positions us well for future growth. Let's take a closer look at our financials at the end of the year. During the fourth quarter, our strong liquidity increased to EUR 1.2 billion. With positive free cash flow and the dividend payment in October, our net debt increased slightly -- only slightly during the quarter. At the same time, we secured a new unsecured EUR 800 million sustainably linked RCF with a 4-year maturity and an option to extend until 2032. The new facility replaced 2 previous RCFs of the same amount, but with improved and more flexible terms. This once again demonstrates the strong and continued support from our lending partners. Now let's take a look at our fourth quarter profitability. Our fourth quarter group profitability of EUR 10 million was mainly impacted by lower deliveries and a lower pricing level in Europe. The decrease in stainless steel deliveries to 365,000 tonnes was driven by continued market weakness and challenges related to the new supply chain planning solution, as mentioned earlier. These negative impacts were partly offset by improved cost performance and higher electrification aid. Let's now take a closer look at the performance of our business areas in the fourth quarter, starting with business area Europe. Overall, the market conditions in Europe remained weak during the quarter. This was evident in manufacturing activity as the euro area PMI remained below 50 much for the second half of the year, indicating continued contraction in the sector. Against this backdrop, volumes were lower during the quarter. This reflected both the ongoing market weakness and a temporary impact from the implementation of the ERP rollout, which we expect to normalize going forward. The weaker pricing environment also weighed on spreads, namely our price net of raw material costs. And this impact was partly offset by improved cost performance, supported by higher fixed cost absorption as production activity increased. In response to the prolonged market weakness, we continued to take decisive restructuring actions to safeguard our cost competitiveness. These actions form part of the EUR 100 million restructuring program announced in connection of our Q2 2025 results, which runs through the end of 2027. As part of this program, we expect to realize cost savings of EUR 50 million this year with a primary focus on business area Europe and group functions. Looking ahead, we also expect demand for domestic producers in Europe to be supported by the introduction of CBAM from the beginning of this year. With that, let me now turn to business area Americas. Despite seasonally lower deliveries, business area Americas delivered another strong performance in the fourth quarter. Improved product mix and lower variable costs more than offset higher fixed costs related to the annual maintenance shutdown in the U.S. as well as lower gains from timing and hedging effects and the usual seasonal decline in deliveries in the Americas market. During the quarter, demand in the U.S. continued to shift from imports towards domestic producers following the tariffs imposed by the U.S. administration in July last year. However, underlying end-user demand remained weak. Similar to Europe, manufacturing activity was contracting with PMI levels below 50 throughout the quarter. On a more positive note, we have recently seen early signs of improving market activity in the U.S. In addition, the Mexican government implemented tariffs on Asian imports, supporting domestic producers such as ourselves in Mexico. Looking ahead, our focus in business area Americas remains on strengthening operational excellence to fully unlock the potential of our asset base while advancing our commercial strategy through an expanded product portfolio and a more differentiated go-to-market approach. With that, let's have a look to business area ferrochrome. We are very pleased that the strong financial and operational performance in business area ferrochrome continued during the quarter. Against the backdrop of ongoing supply constraints in Southern Africa and continued geopolitical tensions, demand for our low-emission European ferrochrome offering remained strong throughout the quarter. While total deliveries declined due to lower internal demand, external deliveries increased, underlying our strong market position. With the introduction of CBAM from the beginning of this year, we expect this positive trend in external demand to continue. Profitability in the fourth quarter benefited from higher prices, lower variable costs supported by the electrification aid and improved fixed cost absorption driven by higher production levels. Looking ahead, despite the termination of electrification aid and the increase in mining tax in Finland from the beginning of this year, we see our ferrochrome business as very well positioned for the future. Our strong strategic setup, the continued expansion of our product portfolio into higher-margin ferrochrome as part of our EVOLVE strategy, and improving mining efficiency through the expansion of the sub-level caving concept will support further value creation in the business. Examples of our product portfolio expansion include our move into medium and high-carbon ferrochrome as well as low titanium products during 2025 already. In addition, recent underground drilling confirms that our mineral reserves and resources provide sufficient ore availability well into the 2050s, offering long-term visibility without the need for any major additional investments. With that, let me turn to some final remarks on the group's overall financial position. Despite the low profitability in the fourth quarter, our free cash flow improved significantly compared to the third quarter, driven by a strong release in working capital. Our ability to release additional working capital was limited by temporary challenges related to the implementation of the ERP system. As a result of the dividend payment of EUR 61 million during the fourth quarter, net debt increased slightly to EUR 265 million. Given the current market environment, our primary financial focus remains on maintaining strong capital discipline with a particular emphasis on working capital efficiency. Now with that, I will hand it back over to you, Kati.
Kati Horst: Thank you, Marc-Simon. So going forward, based on our EVOLVE growth strategy, our focus is clearly on cost competitiveness in our foundational sustainable stainless steel business, while we are then targeting transformative growth in Advanced Materials and low-carbon metals through the technology development. And on the next slide, just as a reminder, as communicated last summer during our Capital Markets Day, here you see the pillars of our EVOLVE growth strategy. So it's maximizing the value from sustainable stainless steel, both in Europe, Americas, growing profitably in Advanced Materials and alloys, then working on technology to create innovative materials and low carbon, of low CO2 metals. And this is exactly the USD 45 million investments we've done on the pilot line in the U.S., which is proceeding well. And then, of course, we continue to focus on total shareholder returns as well and keeping our balance sheet healthy at the same time that we want to keep the possibilities open to invest in growth. Then we would be moving here now to the dividend proposal from the Board of Directors. And the proposal is EUR 0.13 per share for the year 2025 and to be paid in 2 installments. And I think it's important to mention this is very much according to our dividend policy where we also say that we need to look at the company's financial performance in the cyclical market conditions while we maintain the financial flexibility to invest in transformative growth. You see here our dividend per share and earnings per share. And then if you look at over the 5 years and you include this proposal of EUR 0.13, we have actually paid over the 5 last years, about EUR 0.5 billion of dividends to our shareholders. Then we move to the outlook for the first quarter of 2026. And in the first quarter of 2026, the adjusted EBITDA improvement is expected to benefit mainly from the recovering stainless steel deliveries, the volumes, which are forecast to be 20% to 30% higher compared to the fourth quarter in 2025. And the change in deliveries mainly reflects the normal seasonality that we have in the market, but also the exceptionally low level of business in business area Europe in the comparative period, so fourth quarter, which was then impacted also by the challenges related to the supply chain planning tool in the ERP rollout during the fourth quarter. And then with the current raw material prices, some raw material related inventory and metal derivative gains are forecast to be realized in the first quarter. And then our outlook for Q4 2026. So our adjusted EBITDA is -- in the first quarter of '26 is expected to be higher compared to the fourth quarter of 2025. Then I would like to summarize a bit with this slide, some of the key messages from today. And I would start by saying that we do expect more favorable market dynamics going forward in 2026. So in Europe, this culminates very much currently to CBAM and the proposed safeguards as they are supporting demand for low emission stainless steel and ferrochrome, supporting European suppliers. In the Americas, we see a positive outcome of the -- potential positive outcome of USMCA negotiation would really support our business in Mexico and also create more capacity for us eventually to sell in the U.S. And like I said earlier, we see also first signs of economic and end-user demand recovery in the Americas. So being clearly more positive than in Q4. And then we expect this robust demand for our ferrochrome to continue also supported by the continued uncertainty on supply on the market. And if I look at all the business areas, we are very much working on the commercial strategies and the product portfolios, and I see that we have a lot of opportunities in that side. Ferrochrome is already now bringing 3 new products to the market. So this is the way to continue. And on the EVOLVE strategy, I mentioned the technology development. It is very important for us, and we will tell you more about that as we go forward. So I'm very optimistic about our future, our possibility to grow and improve our financial performance and resilience. And then I think this takes us to the Q&A that we are now ready for. So please, happy to hear your questions.
Operator: [Operator Instructions] The next question comes from Tristan Gresser from BNP Paribas Exane.
Tristan Gresser: The first one, I just wanted to ask about Americas. There was a strong performance in Q4. Any one-off tailwind that was in there that will not repeat into Q1? Or is the type of margins on EBITDA per ton that you've seen and done in Q4? Is that kind of a normalized level that you see for the coming quarters? Is there more of the price increase to flow through in Q1? Or that's all in the results we've seen in Q4? And now with the visibility you have and you flagged a bit of improvement as well on the demand side, do you think you can reach your EBITDA target for the division of EUR 150 million, EUR 200 million in 2026? And if not, if you can tell us why?
Marc-Simon Schaar: Maybe I can start with taking your first part of your question, Tristan, on the performance and if there are any extraordinary items within the result. The answer is clear, no, and we can expect then this result to be an underlying result then also going forward plus then the market dynamics which we see now. We expect a seasonal uptick in demand over here. And while we're not giving any price outlook, I think given the current situation and then referring also maybe to the early signs of a market recovery explains, I think, a bit about how we think about the overall market and the dynamics coming with that one.
Tristan Gresser: And regarding the EBITDA target of EUR 150 million to EUR 200 million, is that achievable for 2026?
Kati Horst: Well, I would say, if the market recovery continues, then I think there are possibilities to go towards that, yes.
Tristan Gresser: All right. That's clear. And then kind of a similar question around Europe. I mean, it's always a market that is a bit difficult to calibrate. How do you think about the margin improvement for 2026? I mean you went from negative EBITDA adjusted EBITDA in Q4. The market was tough. There was a bit of one-offs. But consensus has EBITDA per tonne for the Europe division going above EUR 150 per tonne by Q4 this year. Do you think that's feasible? And if you can talk a little bit about the market environment as well. We've seen prices going up. I guess, margins are going up at the moment as well. If you can discuss a bit your order books and the impact of CBAM, that will also be helpful.
Marc-Simon Schaar: Yes. So maybe if I start and then Kati can chip in and add. I think in the fourth quarter, we have seen the lowest volumes driven by the weak market. Yes, we also had here the implementation of the supply chain solution, which I mentioned before. But what we do see and from preliminary data also in January is that CBAM is somehow supportive, as I mentioned before, expecting also a shift towards domestic producers in the European market over here. And as such, also seeing then a margin -- relative margin improvement here in Europe as well.
Kati Horst: And let's just say, command, that needs to also happen. If you look at the overall volumes, demand in Europe and the price level. So yes, volumes need to increase and deliveries need to increase and prices need to increase.
Tristan Gresser: Okay. That's clear. But you're confirming that margin improving at the moment. And just the CBAM and the safeguards, is that enough for you to go back to historical margin levels? Or do you think absent a more pronounced demand recovery that on the end user side that you're not necessarily seeing at the moment, it will be difficult to reach, let's say, historical margin level already this year without the demand?
Marc-Simon Schaar: I think that certainly CBAM and then safeguards are supporting us here and what you just described. At the same time, yes, we see increased activities, but this is not coming really from an underlying demand in the end user segments. And to be clear, in order to get back to historical levels, we also need further demand from the market side as well, given also the capacity utilization we are currently running still being on the low side.
Operator: The next question comes from Tom Zhang from Barclays.
Tom Zhang: Two as well for me, please. So yes, maybe just on ferrochrome. I know a lot of the quarter-on-quarter improvement was from these electrification aid. But I think underlying, you also talked quite positively about the ferrochrome market, which I was a little bit surprised by because stainless volumes have not been very strong. There was still a lot of stainless imports and CBAM, I guess, will help, but it's only just coming in from January. Is there much of a step-up again into Q1 for the underlying ferrochrome business? And so as I kind of look at Q1, even without the power subsidies, do you think it's possible that ferrochrome earnings can remain fairly stable?
Marc-Simon Schaar: I think maybe if I can take that. When it comes to Q4, yes, there was a positive element of then the electrification aid, as we mentioned before. What we have seen as an increase from the third quarter to the fourth quarter, I would say, approximately half or a bit more half of that improvement is coming from that electrification aid. And the rest is real underlying improvement, stronger performance. Coming to the market side, yes, stainless steel demand is lower, is weak. However, we're constantly also reporting that the demand for, again, our European low-emission ferrochrome is very solid. And as such, we saw an increase, not in internal demand, but in external demand. We're also expanding our product portfolio, as I mentioned before, so these are areas and topics together then also with improving our cost performance in ferrochrome with this new or continued expansion of our mining method, sublevel caving, that's all contributing positively. Now if we think about then Q1, certainly, the impact, which I mentioned to you before the electrification aid, but then also the impact from the mining tax in Finland then will have a negative impact in the fourth quarter compared to -- in the first quarter compared to the fourth quarter. However, we continue to improve on the mix side and also on the cost performance. So I would only bake half of the impact of electrification and mining tax into the forecast.
Kati Horst: And maybe to add to that a bit that just as a reminder, so we're delivering now internally, externally about 400,000 tonnes of ferrochrome. We have a capacity of 500,000 tonnes. So we have capacity to increase also external deliveries. And maybe another aspect just to add that this portfolio development in ferrochrome, low titanium ferrochrome, medium carbon ferrochrome and now our latest test based on concentrate, more than 60% chrome content ferrochrome, they bring us also to other customer segments. So it's not only then stainless steel anymore being the customer, but there are other segments. So we see the outlook for ferrochrome quite positive.
Tom Zhang: Okay. Okay. That make sense. I think in -- sorry, just following on from me quickly. I think in Q2, you guys had talked about a mining tax could be a sort of EUR 50 million hit. Is that still the right number to think about?
Kati Horst: No, it's -- so I can be a bit more specific on that. So the mining tax increase now for this year. So last year, we paid about EUR 8 million. This year, we are paying EUR 21 million based on the current premises and volume estimates. So it's a EUR 13 million increase in mining tax. And what does continue in Finland, the parliament has asked the government to look at also at the hybrid model, which would be partly based on royalty and partly then based on the actual result. So that discussion should continue this year. And then the other item there was the electrification aid. So Outokumpu has been getting in total about EUR 20 million in the electrification aid. So if you put those together, then the impact, I think, right now is about EUR 30 million, EUR 35 million.
Tom Zhang: Very clear. And then the second question was basically around, there's been a lot of headlines around ETS reform or potential extension of free allowances. As I understand, that would potentially mean CBAM also needs to be drawn out to adhere to WTO. Given your emissions are already well below international levels, you're covered for allowances out to 2030. Do you see the extension of free allowances as a bit of a risk for stainless? Or do you think it's kind of not too material?
Kati Horst: No, I don't -- at least from our perspective, I don't see that as a big risk. Of course, there's a lot of discussions going on. If my understanding is correct, there will be some kind of a review now in the summer of the EU ETS system. But I think that's also about should it be extended to some other sectors where it's not now yet. So we will definitely hear more about the review and what is being reviewed in the summer. But I think it is -- I think European Commission is still quite determined to their emission reduction targets. And of course, EU ETS system also goes a bit hand-in-hand with CBAM. So we need to see also the effect in the CBAM going forward. But I think it's definitely a competitive advantage to have been an early mover in this area in the case of Outokumpu.
Marc-Simon Schaar: And maybe to add also with smart decarbonization here as well. And I think Kati has mentioned one example, how we think about ecosystems and partnering and making the reduction in emissions as economically feasible.
Operator: The next question comes from Anssi Raussi from SEB.
Anssi Raussi: I have a couple of questions left. First about CBAM and safeguards in Europe, like how do you see the situation if you think about scrap value chain, like if the end user demand is declining due to these new regulations, even though it would be positive for your stainless side. But do you think that scrap suppliers would face some problems, for example?
Marc-Simon Schaar: Well, Anssi, if I can take that question, then I think that -- well, overall, there is then a stronger demand for stainless steel scrap. And this is what we do see then in the market as well. But overall from -- I can only speak from an Outokumpu point of view that through our partnerships with our suppliers being very well covered and also going forward.
Anssi Raussi: Okay. That's clear. And then about BA Europe, like what kind of delivery times you have right now? Because I think your contracts are so-called all-in price-based contracts. So how long it takes before we see this positive changes in market environment in your P&L?
Marc-Simon Schaar: Maybe to start with, not all of our business is on effective pricing. So I would say around 30% of our business in Europe is based -- still based on base plus alloy surcharge and our U.S. business is completely on base plus alloy surcharge. Certainly, we have around 1/3 of our annual expected volumes under contract. These contracts being concluded by mid to end of last year. And as such, there is naturally a certain delay in here. But we should see a gradual improvement here from the first quarter in business area Europe.
Operator: The next question comes from Dominic O'Kane from JPMorgan.
Dominic O'Kane: I have 2 questions. So first, could you maybe provide us with an update on your current thinking for Tornio? And then second question is a related question. If we think about cash flow, you've had 2 successive years of negative calendar year free cash flow. You've done a good job on working capital management, but it may be that is going to be difficult to continue and replicate going forward. And so if I think about what you said at the Capital Markets Day, you didn't provide us with any forward-looking guidance for 2026 CapEx. So I just wonder if you could maybe just help us with those building blocks. Are you able to maybe give us an update on 2026 CapEx? And how should we think about the free cash flow potential in 2026?
Kati Horst: So if I leave the cash flow question to Marc-Simon, I could maybe comment on Tornio. So you're referring to this potential investment in the annealing and pickling line in Tornio. We said in the fall when we were discussing the mining tax topic that is currently on hold. So now we know what the impact on the whole Kemi Tornio setup is cost-wise without this electrification aid and the mining tax. So what we are doing currently, we're updating the investment case and also, of course, looking at is there is there other ways? Are there other items we can take in so that this investment case basically reaches our hurdle of 15% of ARR for foundational investments. So the investment case is still valid and it's being reviewed now with new assumptions as some of the cost assumptions have changed, and we also have some other ideas what more we could do. So it's under review currently.
Marc-Simon Schaar: Yes. And if I then continue on the cash flow question, first of all, during fourth quarter, as mentioned earlier, our ability to reduce working capital was. if I think about the first quarter, yes, business activities do increase, as we mentioned before, our volumes. Then we have also seen the nickel price increase, but expectation at the moment is that working capital will only increase moderately into the first quarter of this year. We do think then for the entire year, I mean, that pretty much depends also on how business activities and prices further develop that we, as a management team, are very committed in focusing on improving our working capital and particularly inventory efficiency now during this year and have dedicated programs in place. Coming back to your particular question around CapEx guidance for this year is around EUR 200 million. And then if we think about financial expenses, pretty much in line with what we have seen this year around, I would say, EUR 50 million. In terms of taxes, I would add or take similar levels as we had a cash out in this year according to our plan. And then we do have restructuring provisions here as well, which we should take into account and which we have been reporting earlier as well.
Dominic O'Kane: Could I just ask on the EUR 200 million CapEx, does that include anything for Tornio?
Kati Horst: No. So if we look at like a bigger investment on the AP line or we would look at more transformative investment in Avesta, no, it does not include that. And maybe as a reminder, we capped our CapEx this year also because of the financial performance cash flow to EUR 160 million -- and I think we arrived at EUR 145 million. So that was also how we were managing the cash. So I think EUR 200 million is more going on the ongoing initiatives, what we have, normal maintenance that we have. And then potentially other investments, they would probably not start in '26 yet impacting our CapEx, but later.
Dominic O'Kane: But the announcement on the CapEx in the U.S. with new proprietary technology, the USD 45 million, that's being part of the EUR 200 million as well.
Kati Horst: Correct.
Operator: The next question comes from Maxime Kogge from ODDO BHF.
Maxime Kogge: So my first question is on dividend because there have been some expectations on our side, on the sell side, that you would at least roll over the existing payout and you have cut it by half. So it's fair considering the other constraints you mentioned. But going forward, how should we think about your dividend payment ability? Is it fair to assume that as long as you have not been back to this ratio of net debt to EBITDA of 1, which is your long-term target, dividends are going to stay quite limited?
Kati Horst: Well, I think our kind of target in the dividend area is, of course, to continue to deliver stable and growing dividend over time. We just have to maybe remember in what kind of cycle we have been and what kind of financial performance we have had -- so that consideration is there. And then the other consideration is, of course, the financial health. So our balance sheet and then also keeping this room for potential investments in transformative growth. So those are the aspects that we are considering in the dividend policy, and that's why the proposal now of the EUR 0.13 dividend per share.
Maxime Kogge: All right. Second question is on the nickel price. So price of nickel has surged by 20% over the last 2 months. So when we ask a question to your main competitor, they were relatively dismissive of any impact since they procure most of the nickel needs from scrap. That's the same for you. But still, would you believe that there could be a positive price volume impact associated with higher nickel price in the sense that distributors in such phases of higher nickel prices tend to rush to buy material. And yes, would it apply in particular in the U.S. where the market is more geared towards distributors, plus you have this pass-through mechanism of the base plus alloy surcharge, which is working quite well unlike in Europe?
Marc-Simon Schaar: Yes. To answer your question directly, with the higher nickel price, also we expect an improvement here on the price level and also within our margins.
Maxime Kogge: Okay. But you don't see any volume impact associated with that, do you?
Marc-Simon Schaar: We do need to see here really a recovery in the underlying demand, certainly with CBAM, as mentioned earlier, and then let's see safeguards coming in that there is a shift in -- from imports to domestic producers, but we definitely need to see how the economic activities are recovering.
Maxime Kogge: Okay. Fair enough. And just last one is on your long-term EBITDA target. That's also in light of comments made by your main competitor around its own long-term target of EBITDA that it dropped from EUR 800 million to EUR 700 million to EUR 800 million, and that was despite a big acquisition made in between. As far as you're concerned, you have a very ambitious and very high long-term EBITDA target at EUR 750 million to EUR 850 million. That's an improvement over the existing EUR 500 million, EUR 600 million. I understand this target is based on the quite high base prices, plus you have the benefit of this new investment. So how comfortable are you with this target given the fact that prices remain quite depressed at this stage, plus consensus has expectations at a much lower level, including for '26 and '27?
Marc-Simon Schaar: I think you mentioned yourself here the pricing environment right now, and this is -- and also the long-term target here as well. And this is how we should look at this as well. We also said this is then the target looking through the cycle here as well and having the improvements as we communicated during the Capital Markets Day through investments in the foundational business here, which is then building up here the improvements. And yes, we're still comfortable around this level.
Operator: The next question comes from Bastian Synagowitz from Deutsche Bank.
Bastian Synagowitz: I have 2 quick ones left as well, please. Maybe firstly, on Americas where you've been doing quite well. You mentioned the U.S. MCA agreement. I guess we don't know what the outcome will be, but could you briefly remind us on the sensitivity to your numbers in the current price and margin environment should the U.S. tariffs be dropped completely? That is my first question.
Kati Horst: Yes. Maybe I'll start with that. I'm not so much talking about the whole USMCA for instance, with Canada, but more referring to the negotiations and the sentiment we have from the negotiations between Mexico and the U.S. So I think they've been constructive, quite positive. Of course, we don't know the outcome. But what was done in Mexico now as well, Mexico imposed 50% tariff for Asian imports as of beginning of the year. That is, I think, something what you have been also asking for. So that has happened. That gave us some opportunities for price increases. And it could also support then demand to a domestic supplier in Mexico, which we are the only one. But of course, there is a tariff now between U.S. -- from Mexico to U.S. of 50% for steel. And it doesn't take into account whether the steel has been melted in America or not. So that is, of course, an upside for us if we can also use the Mexican capacity for the needs of the U.S. market because the Mexican market currently is very weak. It can recover with some of the measures somewhat, but we would very much in this situation, want to use the capacity more for the U.S. demand as well. So therefore, if this tariff would become lower or disappear, of course, that would support our business clearly.
Bastian Synagowitz: And could you maybe just give us like a quick understanding on what the sensitivity is if that 50% tariff would be dropped, just looking at the cross shipments from the U.S. into Mexico and vice versa?
Kati Horst: Well, I think in the past, the shipments have not been so very high because the Mexican market was also doing well. So probably 10,000, 15,000 tonnes. But we have, of course, more capacity in Mexico. So should the Mexican market stay weak, which I, of course, don't hope and the tariff would not be there, it would give us opportunities to bring even bigger volumes to U.S.
Bastian Synagowitz: Okay. Understood. Okay. Great. And could you just clarify the Mexican tariff, does that also cover at least part of your client sectors as well on the downstream side?
Kati Horst: So yes, so there's a derivative list, and there are certain products then on the derivative list where there is no tariff that are made out of steel. I think refrigerators happens to be one of them. But it's a bit of -- it depends what is on the derivative list and what's not on the derivative list. But everything that's in the form of raw material as steel is tariff by 50%.
Bastian Synagowitz: Okay. Got you. Thanks, Kati. Then lastly, are there any big items for us to keep in mind for 2026 on the maintenance side? I guess there's probably the usual, but I don't know, is there anything extraordinary here? And then also anything similar, any one-offs like the ERP, which you had last year, which we should just factor in?
Kati Horst: No. No, nothing major.
Operator: The next question comes from Igor Tubic from DNB Carnegie.
Igor Tubic: I just have 2 follow-ups. You mentioned that the mix in Americas improved. I just wonder what we should expect in terms of Q1 for 2026, both for Americas and for Europe? And then also if you can comment anything about in what segments you saw an improvement, so to say, in the mix in Americas?
Kati Horst: Well, I guess, we have to start by saying we don't guide on the PA level for the Q1, but you saw our guidance of improving volumes in stainless steel between 20% to 30%, so that goes both -- it's combined Europe and Americas. I think that is an answer on there. And then if we look at the -- I could maybe generally answer that if you look at the end user segments that are booming in Americas, data centers is one, electrification goes forward. But I think this is also very much about our own work. So we are digging deeper to different customer segments where we see opportunities for our product portfolio. So we are becoming more of a market maker in the segments where we want to grow. So this work, I'm also expecting to bring some results in the coming quarters.
Marc-Simon Schaar: And maybe to come back a bit more on the first quarter, I think the best way really to look at our first quarter and the guidance is, as we said and stated in the guidance, it's the volume recovery. There are, of course, a couple of offsetting effects left and right that the major driver is really the volume recovery in the first quarter.
Operator: The next question comes from Joni Sandvall from Nordea.
Joni Sandvall: One quick left from me. Could you give -- I think this is a bit of -- you answered partly, but could you give any indication how your lead times have developed now under the CBAM game effective 1st of January. So have you seen increasing order books for yourself? And any indication of how lead times have developed after this?
Marc-Simon Schaar: Yes. Lead times have developed. Lead times have improved. And right now, we're middle of February, and we have already started booking into the second quarter, April into May.
Joni Sandvall: Okay. And maybe a quick one also just to confirm, was the ERP rollout completed already during the Q4?
Marc-Simon Schaar: Well, it is a huge project in itself. We talked about the difficulty and the implications from the supply chain solution as part of the ERP program. And the aftercare will still continue into the first quarter of this year. But yes, we expect then by the end of the first quarter to have then a stable situation going forward. So being temporary.
Operator: There are no more questions at this time. So I hand the conference back to the speakers.
Kati Horst: Thank you very much for your active participation today. And I think this, in principle, concludes our session today. Like I said a while ago, I think we are really confident about our future going forward. So we will look at growing this company. We will gain the resilience, and we will work hard to improve our financial performance. So thank you very much for being with us today and talk to you then again in our -- when we talk about the Q1 results in the spring. Thank you very much.
Marc-Simon Schaar: Thank you.