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Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] Ladies and gentlemen, good morning, and a warm welcome to BASF in Ludwigshafen. We are very pleased that you have accepted the invitation to our annual press conference. Some of you could not be present here in Ludwigshafen and will be connected with us live on the Internet. So warm welcome to you, too. You will be talking today to Markus Kamieth, Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors; and Dirk Elvermann, the CFO of BASF. The conference, as mentioned, will be broadcast live on the Internet on our homepage and also on LinkedIn. The conference language is German with a simultaneous interpretation into English. During the discussion later, English questions will be answered in English. So if you're using a headset for the simultaneous interpretation or want to use them, you find the English channel on channel 1 and the German channel on channel 2. For the photographers here in the room, during the first 5 minutes, you can take photos during the presentation. But afterwards or during these [ photos ], please switch off the flashlight and afterwards, please take your seats. All accredited guests should have received an electronic press folder with all the important documents via e-mail. And that's all on housekeeping, and I give the floor to you, Markus.
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] Thank you, Andreas. Good morning, and welcome to Ludwigshafen, and also to those in front of the monitors. First of all, thank you, Andreas, for you, for having taken over this job. You are doing this for the first time or have been doing this for the first time for a long time because Nina Schwab-Hautzinger left to join Roche, but you probably heard yesterday that we will welcome Thomas Biegi as successor of Nina Schwab-Hautzinger soon. And I think in future, he will take this job, but well, you will have to agree with him. Dirk Elvermann and I will present and explain the most important figures and developments of the 2025 business year. 2025 marked by many geopolitical and headwinds in the world that unfortunately had a negative impact. Consequently, we, in the chemical industry, faced an uncertain and very volatile global market environment and with considerable headwinds. As previously stated, we, therefore, focus primarily on the things we can control within the framework of our Winning Ways strategy. We successfully started up the major assets at our new Verbund site in Zhanjiang, and we also accelerated our cost savings programs and significantly streamlined BASF's organization. Moreover, we progressed swiftly and successfully with the announced portfolio measures. But let me also mention that the year 2025 and particularly the fourth quarter did not develop as we had anticipated. Our prerelease on January 22 already gave you an indication of this. Let's now turn to the details of BASF's financial performance in the fourth quarter of 2025, always compared with the prior year quarter. Overall, sales declined considerably because of strong currency headwinds and slightly lower prices. At the same time, we achieved slightly higher volumes. All segments reported volume growth, except for the Chemicals segment. Volumes rose particularly in Surface Technologies, Agricultural Solutions and Nutrition & Care segments. From a regional perspective, we achieved a remarkable volume increase of 13% in China and posted solid growth in North America. In Europe, we recorded slightly lower sales volumes. Compared with the fourth quarter of 2024, prices declined in 5 of our 6 segments, most notably in Chemicals and Materials due to ongoing competitive pressure. We could only increase prices in the Surface Technologies segment, primarily owing to higher precious metal prices. Currency effects burdened sales in all divisions and were mainly caused by the strong depreciation of the U.S. dollar, the Chinese renminbi and Indian rupee. Portfolio effects slightly dampened sales growth, and this was mostly related to the sale of our Decorative Paints business. Based on this underlying sales development, EBITDA before special items came in at EUR 1 billion compared with EUR 1.4 billion in the prior year quarter. Currency headwinds lowered EBITDA before special items in the fourth quarter of 2025 by around EUR 110 million. Ladies and gentlemen, overall, BASF Group's EBITDA before special items reached EUR 6.6 billion in the full year of 2025. The decline compared with 2024 was mainly due to lower margins and negative currency effects, and the latter amounted to EUR 235 million in the full year 2025. Due to continued low market demand and pressure on margins, earnings in BASF's core businesses, especially in the Chemicals segment, declined considerably. Higher contributions from BASF's stand-alone businesses could only partially compensate for this decrease. Let's now turn to our portfolio measures. Our agreement with Carlyle marks an important milestone in realizing the full value of our Coatings business. Prior to that, we had divested our Decorative Paints business to Sherwin-Williams. Under Carlyle's operational leadership, we want to continue to strengthen the leading position of the Coatings business. This will create further upside potential for the 40% equity share we will continue to hold after closing. We are on track to close the transaction in the second quarter, as previously announced. On the basis of the 2 transactions, BASF's Coatings business is valued at an enterprise value of EUR 8.7 billion. Let's move on to Agricultural Solutions. Our team here once again delivered a very strong performance in 2025 and achieved an EBITDA margin before special items of 22%. We are on track to reach IPO readiness in 2027. Last year, excellent progress was made on the legal entity and ERP separation. By early 2027, the separation will be completed in all regions. In November, we announced the future management Board for the Ag business. Its members combine extensive industry expertise with the required capital market experience. The management team headed by Livio Tedeschi will drive the transformation of Ag Solutions into an independently steered company focusing solely on the agricultural sector. The planned listing of our Agricultural Solutions business will mark the next decisive step to unlock additional value for our shareholders. The planned IPO is targeted to take place on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange. And what is also good news is another piece of news. In January, we announced that BASF Agricultural Solutions is acquiring AgBiTech, a supplier of biological solutions to control insect pests. It has pioneered the use of nucleopolyhedrovirus technology to develop insect control solutions based on naturally occurring viruses. With operations in Brazil, the United States and Australia, AgBiTech serves farmers growing soybean, corn, and cotton as well as specialty crops. This acquisition is an important step in the value creation journey of Agricultural Solutions. The new technology will complement BASF's existing biosolutions portfolio and underscores the commitment to a more sustainable, holistic approach in agriculture, in line with the business strategy of Ag Solutions. The transaction is expected to close in the first half of 2026. From the stand-alone Ag business, let's return to the beginnings of our value chain. We successfully started up all 32 key production lines at our Zhanjiang-Verbund site on time and below budget, a remarkable achievement and a testament to the capabilities of our teams. We also started up the steam cracker, the heart of the Verbund, without any lost time. This steam cracker is flexible, so we can use both naphtha and butane as feedstocks. I was very pleased to hear Linde's CEO, Sanjiv Lamba, describe this as one of the fastest cracker starts up ever. Linde supports us with their cracker technology and engineering expertise and contributed to this major achievement of our teams in Zhanjiang. The team executed this complex task with outstanding dedication and success. We are confident that we will operate the site at high utilization rates even in the current market environment. Nevertheless, I want to note that we expect a slightly negative earnings contribution from the Zhanjiang-Verbund site in the first year of operations, mainly due to start-up related costs. From 2027, we expect the site to contribute positive earnings. Ladies and gentlemen, MDI is an important product for BASF and a key component of our polyurethane value chain. It is indispensable in the construction, automotive, coatings, adhesives and furniture sectors. Classic applications include rigid and flexible foams. It can be found as insulation and upholstery material in your car. For example, I think you're not sitting on such a chair at the moment. In the United States, we are currently expanding our MDI plant in Geismar, Louisiana. The final phase is on track, and we are planning to start up production in the third quarter of 2026. At USD 1 billion in total, the project marks BASF's largest investment ever in the United States. Through this expansion, we are doubling our MDI capacity in Geismar to around 600,000 metric tons per year to serve the growing U.S. market. With that, I will hand over to Dirk Elvermann.
Dirk Elvermann: [Interpreted] Well, thank you very much, Markus, and good morning. I would like to start by looking at the financial figures of BASF Group for the full year 2025 compared with 2024 as usual. EBITDA before special items came in at EUR 6.6 billion, representing a decline compared with the prior year. However, the EBITDA margin before special items, excluding metals, remained almost stable at 12.3%. Net income improved by 25% to EUR 1.6 billion. Net income from shareholdings in 2025 amounted to EUR 1.3 billion compared with EUR 602 million in the prior year. This increase mainly resulted from higher earnings contributions from the at equity consolidated participation in Wintershall Dea. Free cash flow increased by around EUR 600 million compared with 2024, and more information is provided on the next slide. Cash flow from operating activities amounted to EUR 5.6 billion as compared to EUR 6.9 billion in 2024. The decline was primarily driven by changes in other operating assets caused by an increase in precious metal trading positions. Furthermore, net income included higher noncash items and reclassifications than in the prior year. Ladies and gentlemen, in 2025, cash flows from operating activities included a dividend from Wintershall Dea. Reimbursements that Wintershall Dea received under the federal investment guarantees were distributed to its shareholders as dividends. BASF, which holds 72.7% in Wintershall Dea, received around EUR 900 million after tax in 2025. In the first half of 2026, we expect to receive almost EUR 800 million after tax through the same mechanism of which around EUR 500 million was already paid out in January. I think it is important to further explain this. Federal investment guarantees are insurance against political risks such as expropriation or the consequences of war. As with any insurance policy, coverage does not come for free. The guarantee beneficiary, in this case Wintershall Dea, paid insurance premiums for many years, a triple-digit million euro amount in total. Now Wintershall Dea is entitled to and has asserted its claim to insurance coverage. Let's now turn to payments made from property, plant and equipment and intangible assets. In 2025, these decreased by almost EUR 2 billion to EUR 4.3 billion, which demonstrates that we have passed the peak investment phase for the Zhanjiang-Verbund site. Overall, free cash flow improved strongly and amounted to EUR 1.3 billion. In terms of our balance sheet, total assets amounted to EUR 76.2 billion as of December 31, 2025, down by EUR 4.2 billion compared with year-end 2024. But this decline was caused by lower noncurrent assets, mainly on account of currency effects. At 45.1%, BASF's equity ratio remained stable and very solid. By year-end 2025, we have reduced our net debt to EUR 18.3 billion. In 2026, we will use a substantial part of the cash proceeds from our portfolio measures to further strengthen our balance sheet. The maturity profile of outstanding bonds will allow us to further reduce net debt considerably this year, hereby underpinning our current single A rating. Let's look ahead to BASF's capital expenditures between 2026 and 2029. We aim to grow with high capital efficiency by reducing capital expenditures, increasing the utilization of existing assets and optimizing our net working capital. After the successful start-up of our Zhanjiang-Verbund site, we are now bringing down CapEx below the level of depreciation. For BASF Group, we plan capital expenditures of EUR 13 billion between 2026 and 2029. This is 20% lower than the 4-year forecast we gave you last year and more than 30% lower than our planning for 2024 to 2027. In 2026, we planned total capital expenditures of EUR 3.3 billion compared with EUR 4 billion in 2025. The reduction reflects lower CapEx for the Zhanjiang investment. We now expect only a further EUR 600 million in 2026 after EUR 1.6 billion in 2025. With our good current site and planned setup, we have sufficient own capacities in key markets to support our volume growth without requiring major new investments. And we say we are well invested by now. Ladies and gentlemen, where do we stand with BASF's cost-saving programs? In a nutshell, we have accelerated the implementation. By the end of 2025, we already achieved a total annual cost reduction run rate of around EUR 1.7 billion, and this represents an increase of EUR 100 million compared with our original savings target for this date. In 2025, the associated onetime costs amounted to EUR 700 million, and this increase in onetime costs of around EUR 300 million was caused by higher provisions for severance payments. In contrast, the planned onetime costs for 2026 will be reduced from EUR 500 million to EUR 300 million. By the end of 2026, we now expect annual cost savings of EUR 2.3 billion instead of EUR 2.1 billion as planned. The cumulative onetime costs are now expected to amount to EUR 1.9 billion in total. And this shows our positive momentum in bringing down our cost base and our ongoing focus on this crucial topic that we are dedicated to. On the right-hand side of this slide, you can see that between December 2023 and December 2025, we reduced the number of BASF senior executives by 11%. The number of employees decreased by 4,800 if we exclude the around 1,000 employees who were recruited at the Verbund site in China in the same period. This demonstrates that we are actively streamlining our global organization at all levels. In 2026, we will further advance in this direction. We recently communicated our next steps to create more value, which will happen in BASF's service organizations. And these are Global Digital Services and Global Business Services. Why are we doing this? Against the backdrop of our successful portfolio measures and the differentiation between core and stand-alone businesses, we now also want to streamline IT, finance and HR services to meet the needs of BASF's core businesses. In Global Digital Services, we are rationalizing and harmonizing BASF's IT application landscape and sharpening the Digital Service portfolio through consolidation and standardization. In this context, we plan to open a cost-efficient digital hub in Hyderabad, India. We will adjust our existing location footprint and take out significant costs. Building on competitive service levels and focused digitalization, these measures allow us to capture efficiency gains and achieve a significant reduction in the Digital Services workforce. Similarly, in Global Business Services, we intend to streamline the service portfolio, drive automation and establish cost-efficient global hubs. We, therefore, aim to bundle a significant portion of our business services in 2 global hubs in Asia. At the new global hub in India, we intend to bundle services with a focus on finance and HR. And the established hub in Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia is foreseen to focus on global supply chain services in the future. Existing regional hubs will complement this setup. With these decisive steps, we aim to harvest synergies and secure structural cost advantages. Markus?
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] Thank you, Dirk. A key objective of our Winning Ways strategy is attractive shareholder distributions via dividends and share buybacks. That is why we will propose a dividend of EUR 2.25 per share for the 2025 business year to the Annual Shareholders' Meeting. Based on the year-end share price, this represents an attractive dividend yield of 5.1%. The second pillar of our attractive shareholder distribution policy is our buyback program. In view of cash proceeds already received and further proceeds expected, particularly from portfolio measures, we started buying back shares in November 2025. By year-end 2025, we had repurchased shares of around EUR 355 million. Moving on to our outlook for 2026. From today's perspective, we do not expect a meaningful market upswing or a significant easing of geopolitical tensions in the near term. Our forecast for the BASF Group assumes that GDP growth will be slightly lower and that global industrial production growth will be significantly lower than the 2025 level. We expect a further decline in chemical production in the mature economies and weaker growth in the emerging markets. Our planning is based on an average oil price of USD 65 per barrel of Brent crude and an exchange rate of $1.20 per euro. Based on these assumptions, we expect EBITDA before special items to be between EUR 6.2 billion and EUR 7 billion in 2026. BASF Group's free cash flow is expected to be between EUR 1.5 billion and EUR 2.3 billion. Payments made for property, plant and equipment and intangible assets are estimated to be reduced to EUR 3.4 billion. I'd like to add that from a market perspective, the start to the first quarter has been as challenging as expected. In January, volumes in China continued to develop very positively, which is partly related to the timing of the Chinese New Year. But in the remaining regions, volume development has been weak. Given the considerably stronger U.S. dollar in the prior year quarter, currency headwinds on EBITDA before special items could amount to up to EUR 200 million in the first quarter of 2026 alone. So 2026 is likely to be another transitional year with significant headwinds for our industry. Most of the improvements we aim to achieve will need to be driven by our own efforts. We expect a gradual recovery of market conditions in the later part of this year and in 2027 and see promising early indications. However, we are also mindful of short-term demand constraints due to geopolitical and trade-related effects. Let me highlight 3 topics that we will continue to prioritize in 2026. We will continue to actively drive measures to structurally reduce costs by rigorously implementing our cost savings programs, and we will bring down CapEx significantly below the level of depreciation. In parallel, we will hunt for volumes to increase the utilization rates of our plants. And after the successful start-up of our new Verbund site in China, it's now all about filling the asset's increasing utilization rates. Based on our highly competitive cost position, we are confident that we will achieve this goal fairly quickly. Furthermore, we will focus on the completion of the final phase of the MDI capacity expansion in Geismar to capture further profitable growth in North America. And we will build on our successful portfolio measures to crystallize and unlock the value of our stand-alone businesses. We will stay on course to further strengthen our core businesses by implementing the necessary measures. In summary, delivering on our Winning Ways strategy means combining active portfolio steering with capital discipline and strong operational execution when it comes to CapEx and costs. And this way, we will create value for our company. Thank you very much, Dirk and I are looking forward to your questions now.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] Thank you very much for your presentations. Now the Q&A session. And well, just raise a hand if you would like to take the floor, and I will call your name. [Operator Instructions] We will try to finish the conference by 11:30. [ Mr. Lisman ], Rheinpfalz, you are the first.
Unknown Attendee: [Interpreted] Yes. [ Lisman ], Rheinpfalz. You just mentioned that you had to really ask for getting the insurance payment based on the federal guarantee. So were there court proceedings? And secondly, you announced that 4,400 flats in Ludwigshafen will be sold. What about the earnings you expect there? How do you want to use these funds? Does this mean strengthening the balance sheet in order to reduce indebtedness?
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] Okay. Let me start with the federal guarantee. No, no litigation, no court proceedings, [ Mr. Lisman ]. That we really had to request it actively means you have to request this. The money doesn't come automatically, but you have to report that damage occurred. This is what we did. And then the whole process was handled very constructively and within the time line. So no litigation, but just handing in a justified request. Well, in case of sums like this, nobody just says, yes. So it has been looked into. The flats. Well, I think as of now, we cannot give you a figure here that we expect. The process is starting now. We announced that this is a step we want to take. We asked a company to take care of selling the lion's share of these flats, and we will then wait and see what is being offered. But of course, on the basis of the flats, you can calculate for yourselves what the sum will look like. And what we will use the funds for? Well, we cannot give you exactly what we will do, but strengthening the balance sheet means we free the capital tied up in the flats and make it available for the company. And you are familiar with our general strategy when it comes to investing in our future at Ludwigshafen, including new capacities, and it's about payouts to our shareholders. And we have of course, other opportunities to use our capital. So no clear definition how these funds will be used.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] Then Ms. Weiss, Thomson Reuters, please.
Patricia Weiss: [Interpreted] Well, thank you very much. The worth or value increasing, portfolio increases were on your own set of priorities for 2026. And now there were some clear points that you already started. What's open on your list, what you have planned for when you took your term of office, and what can be still expected? And tariffs, the last verdict from the Supreme Court in the United States. So there are repayments of your U.S. company to -- well, into proceedings to gain back the monies from the tariff policy.
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] Well, tariff policies can be done by Dirk Elvermann. And I take the other question. So let me remind you that the transaction of Carlyle with Coatings still has to be concluded this year. We expect that for Q2, and it looks very well. But as I said, this still has to succeed. And then there is the big ambition when there is the IPO for Agricultural Solutions for 2027. This is what we aspire. We take all the preparations and that is, well, a lot of work still for 2026. So let me say we are in the middle of everything still, and with our stand-alone businesses, we stick with ECMS too. So that is the quasi-automotive catalyst business that we have. So we want to proceed with our stand-alone business journey completed and then lifted to a new level of ambition, but under the ownership of BASF. So we said we do not want to sell this business. And with batteries, the situation is as is. We focus on ourselves, but we are open for partnerships. And here, too, we have to check whether there are opportunities and possibilities to increase the value of our battery and battery materials business. So we are in the middle of everything, and there's still a lot of work to be done. Tariffs?
Dirk Elvermann: [Interpreted] Well, for the tariffs, the most recent developments, of course, have increased uncertainties. And we still don't have a final evaluation of the situation and how high the effects would be and what to do. I think last year, we already made it very clear that it is still valid that the direct effects of tariffs to us and our subsidiaries are relatively low, because we have a very strong local-for-local business, 80% to 90%, and that is still valid. And what concerns us most is the general uncertainty caused by these short-term tariff changes taking place, and that also affects our customer industries or mainly them, and that's still the state of the situation. But still proceedings, litigations, well, this is mainly discussed very often. It is quite obvious. So if the entire regulatory situation changes, then there is a legal claim for BASF Corp to really follow up on this. But the question is, will this really happen, and to which extent? This is not quite clear. And many people are already dealing with it, and you can see it with other companies, too, that at the moment, the situation is very dynamic. And yes, we follow it closely.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] Okay. Let's continue with Mr. [indiscernible], please.
Unknown Attendee: [Interpreted] Yes, you mentioned, well, investing -- going through with your investing, so that the world markets are productively tapped, so to speak. And BASF is still generating money. So this money is used for a restructuring or transforming of assets towards a green chemistry situation? Or is your track that you take rather that you check what you could acquire, that you could buy?
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] Thank you. So first of all, well, do we invest in Germany? So to invest through to take our money and go through with it, that's not very obvious to explain. It is something that we use to explain that we use this wave of new investments. So we invested a lot of money in new capacities at the Ludwigshafen site, but also in Antwerp. We invested also in the United States and, of course, in Asia, particularly in China. So we come out of this wave now where we wanted to invest in new CapEx. So now we are through with our investment for the moment. So we used everything which was available for us on the market. Of course, we will continue investing in maintenance and optimization of our asset portfolio. Also in Ludwigshafen, we significantly invest into maintenance at the site, and this is large amounts of money. So it shouldn't just sound like we turn off the tap and we don't invest any longer. But you're quite right, of course, that there are also other possibilities to change the portfolio. And in our strategy, we said that acquisitions in order to further strengthen the core of BASF and to prepare it for the next decade, make it stronger for our growth, and this is still the target of our strategy. But in today's market environment, this is not our highest priority. It still, however, remains an opportunity for BASF to establish in the consolidating European market, but also in the strong Asian market.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] Matthias Kros from Rhein-Neckar-Zeitung, please.
Matthias Kros: [Interpreted] So first of all, on the cost savings, you said that the program was accelerated. You might say that you expanded it too because the sum that you want to save is even higher. So what's the reason for it? Was it necessary to save more? Or did it just come along because you wanted to go through with it faster or deeper going? What is the background here? Then headcount reduction, 4,800 was the number that you gave. Could you tell me how much of this number goes to the Ludwigshafen side? And this process is not concluded, obviously. Do we have to expect that the headcount here in Ludwigshafen goes below 30,000, would you say? And we also talked about shutting down assets last year. So to which extent will further shutdowns come for Ludwigshafen.
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] Well, that's many, many questions all at once. On the cost-saving programs, Dirk, you can certainly add to what I now say. So accelerating and adding, you mentioned both. Well, this program, it always seems as if this program ends at a certain point, and then we don't continue it. But productivity increased and, of course, also cost saving never ends at the end of a program. So an acceleration always looks as if the last bar is higher, as if anything is added. But we always continuously continue that. So the market for chemistry worldwide shows a certain picture, particularly in Europe, particularly with chemistry growth, which in Europe was negative. In Germany, very negative. So here, the cost pressure will stay. And so in the next years, from my point of view, we will have to look to increasing productivity and stabilizing costs and saving costs. So we will not get out of this phase. And our message to our employees is, and we really want to be very transparent here. There's never the moment when we are finished with saving costs. So the market and our competition will put pressure on us. And you saw it in the subject of services. We want to see the perspectives. We want to develop in a way that we can be better in competition.
Dirk Elvermann: [Interpreted] So let me complement on that. You asked whether it's necessary. Yes, in a way, it is. BASF was in a difficult environment in 2025, but everybody did a very good job. But at the same time, for Germany, with our earnings, we are in a negative situation. And this is why there is no alternative to continuing our cost saving, but also to take it one step further to see where we can increase productivity. The earnings situation of the company is at a low level right now. And I told you before, looking at our EBITDA margin, you can see very clearly that we have to make further efforts, and we do that continuously and very consistently.
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] And back to your other question, a split of the number, 4,800 that Dirk mentioned before, I don't know the exact split. We do publish sometimes. Maybe [ Mr. Lisman ] has checked it up already, but I don't know what the exact split is for this number. A significant part of these 4,800 are in Europe. And a significant share of that, again, is in Ludwigshafen. But of course, we can do a fact check here because I don't have the exact figures now. With a perspective, looking into the future for Ludwigshafen, what we want to do is we want to make Ludwigshafen leaner and stronger. Leaner and stronger means that we want to invest in our assets where we see the opportunity to be successful. Just now at the site, we see a lot of expansion investments that we mentioned before. We also have some small adjustments, but we are not planning for any major shutdowns at the core of the Verbund site at Ludwigshafen. But I cannot exclude it for all times. This is the dynamics that we're in. We have to adjust to the market. We did that for tens of years, and we will do so in the future. But what is continuing to happen in Ludwigshafen, and you will have learned about that, too, we have a very strong program when it comes to cost savings, when it comes to personnel cost savings. And in 2025, we took a significant step forward here. You can see it in the one-off costs that Dirk mentioned before, and we will continue to do so in 2026 and 2027, and even accelerate this. So the reduction of headcount here at Ludwigshafen in production, but also in nonproduction areas will continue. And where we will land, what figure it will be? Well, I can't give you any figure here. I've always said this. And I think with the benefit of hindsight, it was a good idea not to give any figures, because the situation has strongly changed already. So let's not forget, it always feels as if time flies since the day when Trump stood in the, yes, Rose Garden with his sign. And the world has changed. And we have to really keep adjusting and keep being flexible. So it was a good idea not to give you one exact factor. We work together with the employee and representatives. We work through the individual projects as best as possible. So today, again, you don't get a target figure.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] Okay. Mr. Freytag, FAZ, please.
Bernd Freytag: [Interpreted] Regarding Ludwigshafen, one follow-up question. So what range is the loss? And what do you expect this year? Second question, Mr. Elvermann, when you ask tariffs to be back, how much have you paid here, to give us an idea? Mr. Kamieth, regarding the European chemicals policy in general. The EU with the critical chemical alliance would like to pick value chains which may be protected or are seen as worth to continue, may probably be subsidized. What are you hoping for here?
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] Very complex questions. Let me start with chemicals, legislation, EU. Maybe you can take over then. Complicated issue, Mr. Freytag. Let me limit myself to Critical Chemicals Alliance. Otherwise, so many other topics will be added that are decided for us in Brussels. Critical Chemicals Alliance, developed from 2 different types of motivation. It's an initiative by the EU Commission. On the one hand, the shock after corona, because we realized in many value chains, Europe is not in a robust situation. And if we don't watch out, we will lose more value chains in Europe, and we will become even more dependent on other regions or even individual countries. Buzzword, rare earths. Buzzword, antibiotics. During COVID, it turned out, oh, it's not a good thing to be in that weak situation in Europe. Secondly, a short-term aspect, and that's the import pressure that we experienced from the U.S. and from China regarding the chemical industry in Europe, because they put capacities in Europe under pressure. I say we caused this problem, of course, to a large extent, because competitiveness situation is very difficult here. So I welcome this approach. The industry, the EU Commission and many advisers want to sit down and discuss how can we come up with a regulatory framework to make sure that on the one hand, we maintain the European chemical industry. And on the other hand, we do away with the critical dependencies. But I think we must not switch it in a way to come up with an island solution for Europe. We must not have a protectionist development in the chemical industry in Europe. That would be the wrong development. This is why we say we need a balanced approach where protection is necessary for reasons of resilience or, maybe in some cases, in a targeted way for competitive reasons. We are in favor. If it means that it will help, it's okay. But if it continues with noncompetitive situations in Europe, we are against. As a chemical industry in Europe, we don't want to live in a zoo. We want to still live out in the wild. So my appeal to the EU Commission often is do not come up with too many specific aid packages, just make sure you take away the load from our shoulders, so that we can continue breathing. So that's my approach here. But of course, I could spend hours discussing this.
Dirk Elvermann: [Interpreted] Mr. Freytag, the other questions. Well, tariffs, I think it's too early to give you exact figures here. Let me tell you, we don't have such a high direct tariff burden, not even in the U.S. I mean, we're not talking about very, very high sums of money. But as Markus said, we look at this specifically. And once we have an opinion, we will announce it. But there is still a lot of momentum in this. BASF SE, well, maybe I can give you one figure. EBIT of BASF SE this year, more than EUR 1 billion negative, of course, for different reasons. Let me start by saying, here on site, people are doing a great job and earnings figures increased on site compared to the prior year. We have a slightly higher capacity utilization, and a lot of things are developing in the right direction with a lot of helping hands. However, the structural weakness in Germany and Europe is continuing. It continues to be a burden. And due to restructuring, of course, we have one-off costs now. We cannot avoid that. And this is reflected also in the figures of our operating activities, but more than EUR 1 billion negative at SE level. This is more than compensated by the positive contributions from the group as a whole. But let me add, that's really important. I understand that this is an interesting figure for you. And well, the earnings of BASF SE, but please bear in mind, BASF SE includes a lot of things. It's the company for our biggest production site, the competitiveness of which is dear to our heart, because people are doing a great job here to make sure that this site becomes fitter. On the other hand, BASF SE is the group company, the parent company here of the group. So it includes a lot of things that are not directly related to the production of this site. So it's a charged figure, so to say. We need to interpret it cautiously. And I always warn against to overinterpret fluctuations in this figure and then thinking you know about the competitiveness of the site. I take a close look. It's important to us to make the site of future fit for the future, fit for a green future, and we are right on track here.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] Okay. Did this answer all your questions? Thank you. Mr. Leo, Xinhua.
Unknown Attendee: [Interpreted] Mr. Kamieth, in today's press release, we read that last year, the Zhanjiang-Verbund site was started up successfully. It's the third biggest production site of BASF globally. Why is BASF continuing to invest so much money in China? Looking at today's uncertain times, how important is the Chinese market in the global strategic approach of BASF?
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] Thank you for the question. Yes, you are right. In the fourth quarter, so with the highlight of the steam cracker very early in January, we, from our point of view, successfully started up the site. As I said, 32 production assets were started up within only 4 weeks. And I would say, looking at the complexity and the success, I'm only talking about the technical start-up, not the construction, which was also great. But to achieving this with such a quality, I think this is the first ever in the chemical industry. So great performance by the team. And this goes to show that this is what our workforce really, really is able to do. We are very proud of this. Of course, this does not protect us against a very difficult market in China. I said, well, the market is growing. There is volume growth in China. However, prices are under enormous pressure because of high overcapacities in China. This does not only go for the chemical industry. In China, for 40 months in a row, we have producer price inflation. So this producer price inflation is not what the consumer sees, but what the producing industry sees, and there is a strong margin pressure because of this in all Chinese industry. But we think in the mid to long term, this will be a successful site for BASF because the strategic location is fine in South China, in the Guangdong Province, where the heart of Chinese growth is to be found, and we are very competitive. China represents almost 54% of the global chemical market. We are at the right location, with the right assets, with a site which, especially within China, but also at global level is producing with a very, very low CO2 footprint. So strategically speaking, very good. Operationally, in the short term, more difficult than expected. But still, we are convinced that this was the right decision. Even though in '26, 2027, the financial performance will be a little more difficult. In China, we generate around 13% of group sales of the BASF Group. This will increase slightly with the new site to between 15% and 20% probably, but China will become more important for us. And you have to put it in perspective. I tend to compare this with the U.S. The U.S. will still be a much bigger, much more important market than China in future. Sometimes the press says, well, we are somewhat biased here, but we are not.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] I have 8 further questions. So let us please be brief, and also with the answers, brief answers, please. Ms. [indiscernible] next.
Unknown Attendee: [Interpreted] Yes, I would like to come back to China for a minute. So you said Zhanjiang will be profitable starting 2027. I think that's what you said. Could you please go a little more in depth what about the development of the margins and why you assume that things are going to be better? Will overcapacities go down? Or is BASF so cost efficient? Or are the Chinese customers prepared to pay more for carbon or low-carbon products? And maybe one question on India on top of that. So with the trade agreement with India, is the market more attractive now for BASF? Or, yes, the service centers that you established there, is that to do with the trade agreements? Or is it just a matter of time?
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] Well, the elements that you just mentioned for the potential increase of profitabilities are all correct, but they will not happen in 2026 or 2027. So not on short time. The reason for increase in profitability, 2025, '26 and '27. '25, of course, we had high costs in investing. Now in '26, the direction will be better, but it is still below the 0 line. In 2027, it's getting better. So we are in a ramp-up situation just now, a gradient. And then in 2027, we will have a site which is full up and running with no ramp-up costs. So the ramp-up costs, required additional employees, people who help, additional costs occur. And now we expect a gradual recovery of margins in China, nothing dramatic, but a steady development, I'd say, of the margins. And that's a scenario for the site. So in 2027, we will enter the positive region. But then medium term, some things will come in that you also mentioned. For example, the high attractiveness for low-carbon products that will come at the end of the decade in China. Then there's going to be a recalibration taking place of capacities in China, not very speedily, but over time. So all these things will then come, and this is why we stick to our profitability statements for 2030. No, India -- sorry, India, maybe you?
Dirk Elvermann: [Interpreted] Well, it happens at the same time. So your second option. So in India, of course, we look at the growing market in India, and it is an interesting market for us. We said so in the strategy too. And it is also the location for competitive services, particularly in the transactional regions. So it happens at the same time. So we went there, and we also announced the hubs, but it is not as if a lot more has to be interpreted into that situation. And the free trade agreement with India and also the free trade agreement with Mercosur, once it happens, both have no major impact on the chemical industry, because the chemical volumes in India are relatively low compared to the overall trade volume. So it's smaller portions. But there is a potential positive effect to the overall industry in Europe and particularly in Germany. So we really support free trade agreements. So we don't want to erect walls. We want to have free trade agreements. That's what we want to invest in. And that's what we like India, we like Mercosur, but the direct impact on BASF is small.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] Bettina Eschbach.
Bettina Eschbach: [Interpreted] I have 2 questions on India. The 2 new hubs, can you give us a figure, how many jobs will be created and maybe also how many come from Berlin, how many people will be maybe transferred from Ludwigshafen to the hubs?
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] Well, first of all, Ms. Eschbach, it's going to be global hubs. They will be very important, and that goes both for the digital services, but also for the business services, and particularly for the transactional services. For business services, that is finance and personnel, so HR. So those are going to be global hubs. And let me be very clear about this, for the further hubs that we have, particularly in Berlin, we do not plan to shut down Berlin. We want to continue our hub in Berlin, and the hub is going to be smaller when it comes to the jobs there, but it will play a major role for us and for the services rendered there. A concrete figure, how much less Berlin will have and how much more India? Well, I can't give you that now. We have our direction of travel. We communicated that. We will further work on that. And of course, we, first of all, have to speak with the employee representatives. We have a very good exchange with them going on, and then there's going to be figures afterwards. Now it's early times.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] Okay. Ms. Martin, please, from Bloomberg.
Marilen Martin: [Interpreted] Well, one question on China, please. So what is the capacity utilization that you expect in 2026 and '27 and further? And another question on Wintershall. What about the situation there? Is it the payments that you set for 2026? Are those the last ones? Or will you receive further ones?
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] Well, let me take the China question. We are very fast when it comes to high capacity utilization. And last year, we already communicated and discussed that with you. And in February, I saw that the steam cracker in Zhanjiang has full capacity utilization, and all downstream plants that you can ramp up quickly, because it's products that you can bring into the market without qualifications, they have high capacity utilization. And in 2026, they will already have a target capacity utilization of very high percentages. And that goes for many products. There are a few exceptions where we are quite aware of being slower because the market situation looks difficult. That's the exception. But there are a few assets where only with the new products, we have to go through the specification and qualification process. We have our surfactants, for example, that's the detergents that go into consumer products. And here, typically, when you produce that from a new plant, a new asset, you have to go through a test period with the customer, and that's about 6 months' time. So here, the ramp-up is a little slower. So this time of the year, half capacity utilization, next year then 100%. But we do use the capacity utilization because it has a very cost-efficient position in China, so we can be quick here. And on Wintershall, for 2025, we had EUR 900 million that we received. And in January, we got another EUR 500 million, and there's going to be EUR 300 additional millions to come. and that then fulfills our claim that we have into this capital coverage of Wintershall. So that's our share, the full share. And then there's going to be another EUR 100 million payment in 2027 and '28, but that will not come from guarantee payments, but it will come from a tax refund, because part of this amount is capital income tax. And then in end of 2027, the rest will come depending on how quickly the tax authorities will work.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] On my list, I still have Mr. Reitz, Ms. Dostert, Mr. Schreiber, Ms. Nehren-Essing, and Tom Brown. I hope that everything will be covered. And we do have a few minutes left. So let's continue with Mr. Reitz.
Hartmut Reitz: [Interpreted] Thank you. I have a question regarding the capacity utilization at the Ludwigshafen site. You mentioned that you are making progress. Maybe you can comment on the situation and the challenges ahead of you. And when it comes to selling the BASF-owned flats. To keep such a number of flats owned by the company is regarded as a commitment to society on part of the company. So are there financial reasons for selling this? Is the pressure too much?
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] Okay. It's important, regarding your second question, to stress the following. We do understand that the news really made a lot of people uncertain in and around Ludwigshafen. That's understandable. And we do understand the irritation we triggered given those who are in charge at political level and of course, also the tenants in these flats. That's obvious. I experienced this personally. I grew up in a flat owned by [indiscernible] AG and my parents understood they sold the flat and my parents were very concerned what will happen to us now. But well, everything was fine in the end. But I do understand these concerns. Of course, you can say social responsibility, yes, that is one aspect, definitely. But on the other hand, just as an experiment in theory, if we didn't have these flats today, and we stand here today and say, we have income, we have money, we'd like to buy 4,500 flats. There would be a lot of question marks. Why is BASF buying flats? So from a point of view of the company, it is capital tied up, which is a significant amount. And it shows where we have other challenges and where this capital could be used in a better way. I think you need a balanced approach. And of course, we care about the responsibility we have for the Ludwigshafen site and the region. And this is why we will approach the process of this sale, as we announced, in a very responsible manner. And of course, we expect guarantees on part of the buyers that comply with our responsibility. We do not just want to neglect any kind of responsibility, but this is capital that can be used very well in different areas of the company. And from my point of view, for the tenants in Ludwigshafen, it can all be really, really fine. But we have to be successful, and we do everything we can to make it successful. Now capacity utilization in Ludwigshafen, I don't have the figure. I don't know it. You indicated the capacity utilization in Ludwigshafen is going in the right direction. I cannot confirm this. Let me tell you, we are still at a low level. I cannot give you a clear figure. And I just mentioned, and that's correct. Capacity utilization compared to the prior year, which was at a low level, is going in the same direction. So this is the trend I can give you, but there are no significant changes that would be worth a headline. This is just saying a first step in the right direction. But these are just nuances in Europe. In the region of Europe, the figure went down. But in all regions, we grew above market level. Maybe I should have made this part of my speech. So volume-wise, we grew ahead of the market. In Europe, we say our shrinkage was lower compared to the market. Ludwigshafen and Antwerp remain under pressure. If we have a slightly higher capacity utilization compared to prior year, it's minor figures. Capacity utilization-wise, we are still very much under pressure in Europe. This is why we have such a cost pressure, because we need to adjust to this situation.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] Ms. Dostert, SZ.
Elisabeth Dostert: [Interpreted] Last year, you said you had a capacity utilization of 80%. Is that the bad type of capacity utilization? First question. Second question, in Ludwigshafen, when does BASF SE want to make a profit again? Or will you remain at the level where you are at the moment figure-wise? And number three, is there any segment which your new Verbund site in China covers where there are no overcapacities at the moment?
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] The last question is a difficult one. Yes, yes, there are products we produce in Zhanjiang where there are no overcapacities. That's a matter of fact. But the majority of products we produce there, it's maybe 30 or 40. This operates in a well-supplied market of the chemical industry, well-supplied market that includes different degrees of available capacities ranging from balance to slight overcapacity, up to products which are under enormous pressure at the moment. So we have everything at the Zhanjiang site. But if you take the average with this site today, we enter an oversupplied market in China. I don't want to tell you anything about individual products, maybe I would make a mistake, so I do not want to do this. The 80% last year for Ludwigshafen capacity utilization. The capacity utilization of Ludwigshafen site or of the BASF Group is not a figure I often take a look at, because it's such a huge KPI that doesn't help you when you control the company. It's easy to communicate. It's easy to remember, but I don't look at it so often. So I don't know what the 80% were. The capacity utilization at Ludwigshafen is at a historically low level. There was some tailwind because we took out some capacities over the last 5 years, TDI, adipic acid, caprolactam closures. Of course, this helps. But capacity utilization has not changed considerably, and this is because the European market is shrinking rather than growing. And so I cannot give you more details on the 80%. Well, when will BASF have black figures? Well, as soon as possible. We don't have a specific BASF planning in our strategy, but we are working on whatever we have as part of the [ Lucid ] program as part of the strategy to make it a profit-generating pillar of the group. Otherwise, we will not reach the ambitious targets we have. Ludwigshafen should not be a drain on the group. So this is why there are a lot of expectations when it comes to Ludwigshafen. But we don't have a year I can give you now when we want to be in the area where we have positive figures again, but this is also how we communicate it to our team.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] Mr. Schreiber, please, brief question.
Unknown Attendee: [Interpreted] Well, we heard about overcapacities in China. This means that a lot of chemicals are entering Germany and Europe. Prices are going down. Do you think prices will recover? Do you have a forecast here? And you said emission certificates were in the 3-digit million range. Can you give us a figure for 2025 here?
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] 2025, it was a little more compared to 2024. Just look at the ETS price and then you will know. But the statement is true, in '25, it was slightly higher than 2024. We think prices will not go down dramatically. In case of many products, we still reached a level where many companies in the chemical industry are not really making a profit. You see how many companies are going bust in Europe. In China as well, a lot of companies are no longer operating profitably. So we have reached the bottom, so to say. Recovering -- well, I think in many products, we will not go down any further. But let me also tell you, we see so many products from China in Europe now. It's important to state Europe is still a net exporter of chemical products. We, value-wise, export more products from Europe than importing them to Europe. But there is an imbalance, because we have a lot of import pressure from the U.S. and China when it comes to energy-intensive, high-volume products. And in public, this then rules the discussion about the chemical industry. But we are by far the biggest producer of specialty chemicals in Europe. Very often, we talk about ETS, about imports from China. These are the base products, what we call upstream products. But the BASF is not a pure upstream company. Pressure is enormous, but when it comes to specialty chemicals, Europe is very strong and a net exporter. That's important. I mean, import pressure from China is an issue, but not that much.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] Ms. Nehren-Essing.
Michaela Nehren-Essing: [Interpreted] Well, many questions were already answered and were also already questioned, but I have one more. At the beginning of your presentation, you said that there are also signs heading into the direction of improvement of the situation. Maybe you can go into that a little more in detail. Where do you see this? And I have a question on the selling of the 4,400 flats of BASF. How high are the costs, the annual costs, because that will also play an important role once you sell flats, because they have to be maintained and all that.
Markus Kamieth: Well, second question, I don't have an answer. Maybe you, Dirk.
Dirk Elvermann: Well, I do not have an answer on the running costs, but maybe I can put it into perspective. So the flats, what we do not want to do is that we want to save costs here. What we're talking about is how can we use the money reasonably for the company. And I said we have to focus, and we want to use our funds for good chemical production also here in Germany and at the site. And this is why we said, well, real estate administration is not what we want to do really. If we find a buyer that also takes over the social charter that we arranged for our rentees, then we can, of course, find a good solution and with our tenants. And I do not see any, well, proper costs or expenditures in our budget. We just want to use the funds where they best fit. Let me just put it very simply. So the flats are operated today by BASF Bauen and Wohnen, that is a real estate administrator for us, and they actually have a business model that they do it as good as possible as a real estate administrator can do. So for us, it is not something where we say we can save costs here, because these costs remain in this real estate cycle with the tenants, and it's a different cycle.
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] Positive signals. That's another subject that you alluded to. Looking at what is happening in the world just now, there's many things that can go wrong, a very high volatility, nervousness, well the tariff verdict in the United States, the war planes went into the Gulf War, U.S. war planes. So these are things that are difficult to rate. So it is sometimes also difficult to see positive signals. But let me start in Germany. The infrastructural package was announced with a lot of attention. And last year, we had to say, particularly for our Anglo-Saxon investors, we said it's not going to start in 3 months. But in 2026, we see the first signs and it really gets started. I talk to people who, for example, work in the construction building business. They get this incentive from the government to invest in new buildings, in new barracks for the Army. Maybe you saw recently the purchasing index was mentioned with a figure of over 50. I don't remember the last time when it was over 50, that has to be many, many years ago. But there is a certain optimism, obviously, that in Germany, positive activity is to be expected. But it's too early to celebrate because there are other indicators that point in the different or in the other direction. All in all, we see increased confidence with our consumer and customer partners that goes into the right direction. So well, we reached the trough, so to speak. And that's all I can say at this point. There are some signs for positive growth signals. But if that is going to be sufficient impulses to push us over the 0 line, so to speak, let's see. But if you look into the media, you can find a lot of connecting points to be a little more optimistic for the second half of 2026 and then in 2027 compared to looking back.
Michaela Nehren-Essing: [Interpreted] Can I have an additional question, please? Coming back to the flats that you want to sell. You said you manage the flats from yourself, for your own company, as an own unit, you say. But once you sell the flats, that means that you need less people to administer these flats and maintain them, which again means, well, headcount reduction.
Markus Kamieth: [Interpreted] Well, it can and might happen, but it doesn't have to. It's early times in this process. So we communicate things very early. We make a decision, and then we don't have all the answers right at the beginning. At BASF Bauen and Wohnen, as far as I remember, they have 80 to 90 staff. And then you have to see, in a potential new construction that has to take over Bauen and Wohnen. And of course, we will keep 1,400 flats because they are near the site, and we want to keep it. But you can see that it is not a subject which will have a big effect on our portfolio and our budget. But we have to accept that there are people who are concerned now, and we shouldn't speculate. But it might be that if the buyer doesn't have any capacities to do the administration of these flats and to maintain them, that these people will be again employed by this buyer. But it's early times, as I said.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] Tom Brown.
Tom Brown: Just a quick one to close off. In light of the bearish environment this year and the insolvencies we've seen in Germany, especially, like do you have a projection on how much capacity you expect to leave the European market? And just kind of building from that, looking at Ursula von der Leyen's comments in Antwerp and the delays in EU Mercosur as well as the delays to funding for Ukraine, do you think there's an argument for centralizing greater power in Europe at the Brussels level?
Markus Kamieth: The second question, it's a very fundamental question. I think if you would ask anybody in Europe, [indiscernible] form of the European Union and its constituents or processes, so to say, you would find a high vote. And I would say even people in the European Commission would say, yes, it would be needed because we are struggling with the 27 votes, 27 Unity votes on a lot of big decisions. But there's also no easy answer. And I think, for me, it is not appropriate to now use the word like you used, centralization. It's an oversimplification of what is needed. Everybody wants to make Europe successful. We want to make Europe successful. We have to make Europe successful. I can only warn that especially parties that are making public noise around criticizing that the EU is maybe not good for Germany, that they don't get, let's say, too much airtime with their oversimplistic arguments, because Europe is good for us, Europe is good for European industry, Europe is good for most citizens in Europe, but we could use a more future-ready European Union, so to say, I would say. And I think there probably even Mrs. von der Leyen would subscribe to this. Your first question was on insolvencies...
Tom Brown: Yes, insolvencies...
Markus Kamieth: I don't know. We have published this -- the Cefic has published this in January. You have maybe seen this if you were in Antwerp, that over the last 3, 4 years, already 9% of the European chemical capacity has been closed with a consequence that 90,000 jobs have already been -- direct and indirect jobs have been affected. And if you look at the dynamics, we are not at the end. So there is more capacity that will be closed. There are insolvencies, there's restructuring. And I would say there's also delayed restructuring now with some asset sales that are happening in Europe. So I would say the time of restructuring in the European chemical industry is not yet over from a BASF perspective. This is also something we feel is necessary. So that's why I said earlier, a protectionism in Europe is not good for the industry, and it's also not good for BASF, because to some extent, the overcapacity also in Europe has to be addressed. The overcapacity is not only in China, it's also in Europe. And noncompetitive assets have to also be restructured. And we believe that this actually is a source of relative competitive advantage for BASF, because we have, in Europe, very competitive assets. In sites like Ludwigshafen and Antwerp, with a high degree of integration, a low cost base in terms of asset cost and good energy integration will actually play out their relative advantage compared to many other chemical sites in Europe, smaller nonintegrated that will get into difficulties.
Andreas Meier: [Interpreted] Thanks. We have to come to an end because we have some other calls coming on. And if you have any further questions, we will have to do that later. So thank you very much for the presentation. Thank you very much for your questions and your interest. And before we close the conference, I would like to give you a few points of housekeeping. Today's AGM is going to take place on the 30th of April in the Congress Center Rosengarten in-person attendance, and we will inform you also on the results of the first quarter 2026. We will have a media office area installed for you, and we would love to welcome you there. For the TV and radio teams registered for short interviews with Mr. Kamieth and Mr. Elvermann, please don't approach us here. We have reserved some quiet rooms. Please just contact my colleagues at the door to the lobby. So that's the end of our annual press conference. Thank you very much for your interest. We are looking forward to further exchanges with you and invite you for a little refreshment in the lobby. Thank you very much.